13th step

[navysteve]

After reading some othe rthreads I just got started thinking:

In the rooms of AA, there are folks who were thieves because they were alcoholic, but there are also alcoholic thieves. I was thinking of discussions I’ve heard in the rooms and online about what is infamously called the “Thirteenth step,” predators who take advantage of the vulnerability of newcomers. I am reminded that the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous is a part of a fallen world. But sometimes, the special nature of the group, providing so much blessed protection, lets us put blinders on and think we are a cut above the world. We are not. We are just a part of the world with a particular illness. I have to remember that the 13th stepper is sick and needs our compassion as much as any other sick alcoholic in the rooms.

Often times 13th stepping is seen as people ( usually men) who screw newcomers. This is certainly true, but I think of 13th stepping as when a person with some time in AA takes advantage of a newcomer. This opens up a whole bunch of people who fit into that category:

Sponsors

AA Gurus
Just to name a few

[digderidoo]

Interesting thought, i have never heard of the 13th step but i have seen it in action.

Paul

[AW2486]

Its the guys that prey on the female newcomers. Make them feel uncomfortable all the time, bad enough where they don't return. I saw more of it when I first sobered up on the mid to late 80's. No so much anymore.. atleast at the meetings I attend.

Sponsors or AA Guru's .. I wouldn't go that far.. Unless of course they are doing what I posted above.

Just my 2 cents.

[Sugah]

For some reason, the subject line of this thread reminded me of someone I was thinking about when I saw the speaker tape thread. Wasn't it Wayne B. (fella who owns up to all his sick sober behavior) who talked about his greatest line to the newcomer women?

"Hey, baby, you want to get a cup of coffee and talk about God?"

Though I agree. It's about more than just sexual harassment.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

[bob_sapp]

I think it goes both ways (at least it does now...)... there are guys who hit on new women, but there are also new women who come in and hit on guys.

I can't speak for all guys, but the ones I associate with don't look for women in the program, and especially wouldn't intentionally make advances on newcomers. I've even turned down a woman in the program because I don't want something that just causes more pain and resentment (relationships in AA that will never work out).

[navysteve]

Its the guys that prey on the female newcomers. Make them feel uncomfortable all the time, bad enough where they don't return.

When I was 60 days sober I was approached by a woman with eleven years. We hooked up, then when she was bored with me she dumped me and found a new newcomer guy. Nothing was ever said because it was a female predator and I was a guy. ABout two years later when one of her girls was relapsing over a guy who 13th stepped her she was in a meeting ranting about removing some of his appendages. I politely reminded her of her own behavior in this area to which she replied " It isn't the same"


Yeah it is...

13th stepping isn't about guys hitting on new women. Its about people with time taking advantage of newcomers.

[Music]

Seems I read something about alcoholics not being saints. Because a guy or a gal becomes interested in the opposite sex, doesn't mean they're a "predator." Let's stop using the labels and call it what it is. Attraction!! True, there is a time and a place for everything and that's what people who've been in the program for a while are for. Instruct rather than criticize.

[CAPTAINZING2000]

That can be in all areas of life, AA doesn't have the patent to this.

[lizw]

Originally Posted by Sugah

"Hey, baby, you want to get a cup of coffee and talk about God?"

That's friggin funny.

And I have to say that after my recent stint in SLAA (sex and love addicts anon) to my surprise I discovered most of the guys in my area who are considered to be '13th stepers' have all at one time or another been SLAA members or are sometime members.

It really made me see them in a different light and I have to also say I am really grateful my a** whipping in this area did not involve a member of AA or another fellowship.

I also want to add that there is a book written by a guy about Sex Addiction who proposes that once an alcoholic stops drinking they are very likely to pick up sex addiction despite being an AA member or whatever. I dunno if it is true or not but it is very easy to believe. I think the book is called Out of the shadows.

I went to an AA meeting on Saturday morning and at least 2 people talked about their problems with sex and relationships. And I don't know about any of you but in my expereince a lot of people I know who've gone back drinking after a long period of soberity have usually had a relationship end.

[bob_sapp]

Originally Posted by Sugah

"Hey, baby, you want to get a cup of coffee and talk about God?"

I'm gonna have to start using that now lol

[navysteve]

Because a guy or a gal becomes interested in the opposite sex, doesn't mean they're a "predator."

Don't believe I or anyone else said that at all.

predators who take advantage of the vulnerability of newcomers.

No where did I imply that attraction to the opposite sex is anything like being a predator. In fact I did not use predator in the context of sex at all.

predators take advantage of the vulnerability of newcomers.

[Tommyh]

I ran into a AA old timer at a AA assembly once.He was from the east coast of NC.
We talked for hours and I liked his perception of 13th stepping,because it was different and broader.

if I use people,places,or things for my own personnel,inconsiderate and selfish gain,that includes using AA
it eventually lands me in a pit of muck.

splat!

that pit is demoralization
to get out of the pit,I have 12 steps

[Music]

Originally Posted by navysteve

Don't believe I or anyone else said that at all.
No where did I imply that attraction to the opposite sex is anything like being a predator. In fact I did not use predator in the context of sex at all.

You may not have made the statement directly, but when I read your post, I thought at least you inferred that 13th steppers were predators. When my wife started going to AA, she was taken aside by some of the women and told she wasn't dressed appropriately; that she needed to stop dressing like she was going to a bar. We need to stop getting caught up in the language that's so easily abused and overly used these days in every day society. I didn't come to AA in my right mind, with good social skills and healthy habits. I had to go through a period of rehabilitation which was accomplished with the help of "old timers" and "AA gurus" who were of sound mind and spirituality and who had the skill to tell me what I needed to know in a way that I could understand and not feel threatened by. I would not even consider using the word "predator" until/unless the person...he/she, had been repeatedly warned about their actions and did nothing to change.

By the way Steve, I'm not interested in getting into a pissing contest with you over what you said or didn't say, or meant or didn't mean. I'm simply stateing the impression I had when I read the post. If I can get the wrong impression by what you posted, it may be possible that someone else might as well.

[Fulldresser4]

Hi! I'm BACK!
Great topic as usual, Steve.

Appropriate, as I took one of my friends to an AA Meeting Sunday night. I saw this guy there that I kind of know from other meetings. He is going through a divorce, and is probably late forties. My friend is just beautiful in a classic sort of way. He immediately told me that I had to introduce him (she has six months and he's been in and out for years). I was like, UH NO! I'm pretty protective of my girls, LOL. He asked for my phone number and like I dumb a@@ I gave it to him. He has called me twice since then; I answered once and didn't the next time. The other guy (newcomer) that I (once again, in my save the world attitude) gave my number to has called me literally 8 times in 2 days. Quit answering. Lesson learned? Sorry, I'm just not strong enough right now. Get with one of the guys who has long-term sobriety and they'll be happy to help you.

Boundries, boundries, boundries.....who knew I needed them?

Annie

[RufusACanal]

"Now about sex. You can probably stand an overhauling there. We needed it. But above all, let's be sensible on this question. It's so easy to get way off the track. Here we find human opinions running to extremes - absurd extremes, perhaps."

[miss communicat]

Originally Posted by bballdad

I ran into a AA old timer at a AA assembly once.He was from the east coast of NC.
We talked for hours and I liked his perception of 13th stepping,because it was different and broader.

if I use people,places,or things for my own personnel,inconsiderate and selfish gain,that includes using AA
it eventually lands me in a pit of muck.

splat!

that pit is demoralization
to get out of the pit,I have 12 steps

thats good! I like that definition or perception of 13th stepping.

[kj3880]

Originally Posted by Music

When my wife started going to AA, she was taken aside by some of the women and told she wasn't dressed appropriately; that she needed to stop dressing like she was going to a bar.

This makes me wonder if AA is different from NA in the way that women are commonly expected to dress. In NA, the young women, and sometimes the older ones too, often dress very fashionably and sometimes quite fancy, particularly on Fri/Sat night. Sometimes the men do too.

I don't really see anything wrong with it. That's their social time after the meeting and they might be doing the dress-up and go to a meeting rather than dress-up and go to a bar.

There's nothing wrong with a young woman or man looking her/his best and feeling like she's beautiful. I love to see someone come in all raggedy and then in a month or so look like a million bucks! It might help her/his self-esteem.

I always feel my best when I look my best, and frequently spend time with my makeup and hair, choosing a particularly cute outfit for a meeting on a Friday night. It might be the only time I get to go out into the adult world on the weekend, and I enjoy it. It makes me feel so good when people in my homegroup tell me how much better I look, how much healthier and pretty, since I'm in recovery. That may be shallow, but it does make me feel happy.

Is it different at AA? Are the women criticized or gossiped about if they dress "too cute?"
KJ

After all, "we are not a glum lot"

[navysteve]

KJ,
In your area, AA actually has a tradition that when you speak at a meeting you dress up. Many NA oldtimers there ( Who usually had, or still have AA sponsors) do this as well. You also have to remember that recovery fellowships are simply a microcosm of the social area around them. Societal norms from outside the rooms naturally bleed over into the rooms. There is no AA or NA way when it comes to social customs. I think that is one reason there is a bit of arguing on these sites. having moved around a bunch of times it took me awhile to realize that for myself. What one person consider dressing up, another may consider advertising. Personally, I don't think it is any of my business what anyone else wears to a meeting.

[CAPTAINZING2000]

Getting side tracked but, Bikerprincess a member or, used to be on here had me speak in the St. Louis area a few years back. She mentioned to me to wear a tie when, I spoke.

I cringe at the thought of if, a woman dresses a certain way she's asking for it!

There's an area rehab center my sponsor is the director over that, comes to our home group meetings. He's told several of the guys to back off of the ladies from the center.
This behavior since getting clean and sober makes my skin crawl.

Our primary purpose in AA is not to hookup. That being said, 2 people in AA that, have some sobriety and want to have a healthy relationship isn't necessarily wrong. The only down side is the same as when, you work with people and you date them if, it goes sour!!

[Music]

Originally Posted by kj3880

This makes me wonder if AA is different from NA in the way that women are commonly expected to dress. In NA, the young women, and sometimes the older ones too, often dress very fashionably and sometimes quite fancy, particularly on Fri/Sat night. Sometimes the men do too.

I don't really see anything wrong with it. That's their social time after the meeting and they might be doing the dress-up and go to a meeting rather than dress-up and go to a bar.

There's nothing wrong with a young woman or man looking her/his best and feeling like she's beautiful. I love to see someone come in all raggedy and then in a month or so look like a million bucks! It might help her/his self-esteem.

I always feel my best when I look my best, and frequently spend time with my makeup and hair, choosing a particularly cute outfit for a meeting on a Friday night. It might be the only time I get to go out into the adult world on the weekend, and I enjoy it. It makes me feel so good when people in my homegroup tell me how much better I look, how much healthier and pretty, since I'm in recovery. That may be shallow, but it does make me feel happy.

Is it different at AA? Are the women criticized or gossiped about if they dress "too cute?"
KJ

After all, "we are not a glum lot"

Cute but conservative is one thing. Low cut on top and high cut on the bottom is something else. Of course there are appropriate places for almost any dress, but an AA or NA meeting is not the place to dress like we used to dress when we were cruising the bar scene. We're asking for problems if we do because all the people in attendance are not all that well yet. Remember, WE TEACH PEOPLE HOW TO TREAT US.

[Emimily]

lookin cute and lookin like a ho are very different. there were girls who dressed like tramps where i got sober, and no one took them seriously. they didn't take themselves seriously. same deal here, you can look cute (yay!) but too revealing is trashy (booo...)

plus, it attracts unwanted attention. there's nothing worse than seeing a woman who blatantly dresses in skimpy stuff complain about guys that won't leave her alone... hellllloooooo...

BUT - 13th step. predators exist everywhere, AA is certainly not a hotbed of mental health. however, i've been known to ask my AA "big brothers" to look out for me and my sponsorship family. we're all pretty young, and it's nice to know there are awesome sober dudes gettin our back. i've also grabbed my sponsee away from certain banana sandwich AA members because it was unsafe to give too much info to a specific man - he's a nut, i wrote about him here more than once.

but i think that prayer and being open and honest with a sponsor helps more than anything when it comes to any problem. has helped me more than twice.

[RufusACanal]

Good Stuff....

[lizw]

[QUOTE=Music;2054632] When my wife started going to AA, she was taken aside by some of the women and told she wasn't dressed appropriately; that she needed to stop dressing like she was going to a bar. [/QUOTE ]

About 5 years ago, I was at a meeting once where a newcomer just went off at a guy (in the middle of the meeting) about him looking up her skirt when she walked past/stepped over him.

The meeting got closed, a fight nearly started and he got chucked out of the building. I gave him a ride home. He is 'known' as behaving in a unhealthy sexual way towards newcomers - especially young ones. I.e. under 20.

Even as a female, I have to say that the woman skirt was so short it looked like a headband that had slipped and she wasn't young. She eventually left the fellowship too but at the time when I told my sponsor about it she made this same comment. To be excact she said, "sounds like she was looking for attention but just didn't like the attention she got."

Part of getting and staying sober (for me) is a change of attitude and for me when it comes to this stuff, my attitude is if I want to wear revealing clothing then I can't complain about being perved at. It's a fact of life that it will happen. Claiming others should know better or not be pervy is the same kind of attitude that goes hand and hand with drinking. I.e. I can do what I want and everyone else, in the world, should change to suit me.

And if you are (reading this) newly sober and men at meetings are asking for your phone number and you don't want to give it, know that "NO" is a complete sentences and it is perfectly fine to say "My sponsor told me not to give my phone number to men" even if you don't have a sponsor.

[IO Storm]

I went through something this year..found out (some) of the men in my home group

had been saying some "lustful things" about me. Another friend and my sponsor

talked to me about it. They were both very angry..at the men. I was hurt..and

cried.

But I had to stop and think..it was summer, and I had been wearing some pretty

low cut sundresses to HG. And I am uhh.."endowed."

So..there I am, talking away about how wonderful my HP is..and where I am

on the Steps, and how the program is working in my life..with my boobs hanging out.

Wonderful!

So..I changed. What I wore to meetings. LOL

And I got rid of the resententment I was carrying..

[Fulldresser4]

Well said, LizW and IO...after about the first month (which I sobbed through just about every meeting) I started getting "dolled up" for meetings. DUH. And though I am a little undertall for my weight right now, I too am well endowed. Thus some unwanted attention. Now I go in my sweats and a decent looking t-shirt, and love it. I don't need to cake on any makeup or wear anything low-cut. I'm not there for that. Actually, that is the LAST thing I need or want right now, LOL. So I show up and I am what I am. When I do have the opportunity to do an open talk, I will look presentable. But until then, what you see is what you get! Baggy sweats and all, heehee.