Tolerating the Intolerable

[Emimily]

I went and heard Tom I. speak last Saturday, and was amazed at how a man with 51 years of sobriety is every bit as active and into recovery as he was when he first got started... but that's not the point. The point is, something he says is really sticking to me right now. He says that (not verbatim, btw) if we tolerate things that are intolerable, it's the same as being blindly intolerant. That makes sense to me, it seems like it's in the same line as the saying "if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything."

The reason why I'm bringing this up here, and I'll probably bring it up with my sponsorship family at brunch this Saturday, is because I've seen/heard a lot of things that are, without trying to be judgemental, really f**ked up. Maybe it's because I feel sensitive, or overprotective of my sponsees, or... human? I've read a lot on here lately that's super inflammatory, without being pulled. I've heard people say things that are not only untrue, but could be dangerous to newcomers... to anyone, really.

So what do I do? I've mostly tried to ignore, walk away, pray for others, stay out of resentment, and really work with others. I have 3 sponsees, so that's not hard. BUT - to not say ANYTHING makes me feel like I'm condoning the problem with silence. Anyone else encountered anything like this? What'd you do?

Thanks loves!

[sugErspun]

Of course - I experience the same thing here and everywhere. Here is hard, because "tone" is neutral in the printed word..you either have to use tons of other words to set the tone, or put a disclosure in that you are not intending to hurt or cause pain. So a lot of times, I just keep quiet - let people have their way. Other times, I retalliate and cause harm....sometimes the balancing point "comes out". Usually when I am not taking something too personally.

But I agree - to keep quiet can be as bad as condoning. My favorite line in the book about this mentions that we are neither servile nor scraping - I had to look into what that means...particularly when making ammends.

Someone here, and maybe they will share - wrote an online posting "ideal". Seems like a good idea for everyone. I know it has helped me.


Deep stuff kid..LOVING it!

~a

[tiburon88]

Why would anyone who has 50+ years of "sobriety" still need to go to AA meetings? I guess I just don't get it.


tib

[sugErspun]

Who said anything about need?

[Tommyh]

I believe Tom goes for several reasons.
One is to try and be of service to God and others,
and the other is to continue to make amends to two young people he harmed many years ago.He has said that in one of his talks.

Emimily,my old 88 yr old sponsor says,if I can`t help the situation,I leave it alone.He made that statement Monday night in a meeting when the Serenity Prayer was talked about.Some things we can change,somethings we just cannot and we will drive ourselves batty trying to fix or change them.Thank God He can give us the wisdom to know what to leave alone,and what not to leave alone.Prayer is a good.Sometimes I get the urge to "straighten out a mess" and I forget God can do a better job than I can.I better check there first.

Before my second sponsor died,he used to tell me "Tommy,in every meeting we have all levels of sanity,insanity,and spirituality."
I believe he was right.It may be the same on the internet.

I think good sponsorship is essential,and it looks like you have a bunch of good ladies in your sponsorship family.

[tiburon88]

Originally Posted by sugErspun

Who said anything about need?

You are correct sugarspun. However, I would hope he does not attend AA meetings daily. IMO that would be pretty sick.

tib

[sugErspun]

What difference does it really make?

Do you know Tom? Have you ever met him? Do you know what it's like to work with others and carry a message of hope?

You were closer to the truth when you said "I guess I just don't get it".

[SoberforME]

Originally Posted by tiburon88

Why would anyone who has 50+ years of "sobriety" still need to go to AA meetings? I guess I just don't get it.


tib

I have a friend that's been sober for 15 years. I said "how long until I don't have to come to meetings?"

He said, "Until you want to come"

It's not about NEED it's about really wanting to help others in the same way you were helped.

[MCH]

I try to mind my own business. I felt I needed to take a stand with my boss last year, though. Her behavior was intolerable, unprofessional and it damaged the moral of the entire staff. I did and there was an explosion. I knew I did the right thing. I was called on it by the higher ups and I didn't budge. Since then the work situation has gone from torturous to relativly smooth. My boss seems happier and the whole place is lighter. In this case, it worked out for the better.

I really had to pray about this, was my ego wanting a voice? It was not an easy thing to do but it was worth it. I knew it was right because through out it all, I felt solid inside.

Every situation is different and must be determined by the individual and his/her God. Its easy to sit on the sidelines and tell other people what they should or shouldn't do. And again, usually I keep my mouth shut.

[navysteve]

Why would anyone who has 50+ years of "sobriety" still need to go to AA meetings? I guess I just don't get it.

He gets to go to AA

[BackToSquareOne]

I think there's a fine line between not tolerating the intolerable and respecting another persons opinion. Everyone interprets things differently. Lets take Tibs recent interpretation of "sober time" as an example. I took it as Tib being silly, I thought it was kind of funny now another person might view this as intolerable. I guess it's all in how you look at things.

[CAPTAINZING2000]

There's a woman that, goes to my home group meetings has over 23 years of sobriety. She's got a degree in counseling alcoholics and drug addicts.

LOL

The things that come out of her mouth amaze me. I'm at a loss sometimes as how to reply to her off the wall comments. I don't know if, it's because she's so intelligent she's a square peg in a round hole or, she's a social moron.

I do believe Ann Landers was correct in the best response is total silence!!
If, my program is working, I can choose to ignore a lot of things that, I see Earth people go off on. That, doesn't mean I have to be a door mat though.

I'm still working on the lyrics to this song to complete my being totally serene in my recovery
YouTube - i feel pretty [ Adam Sandler & Jack Nicholson ]

[Ago]

I'm wondering the same thing Em

I really am.

I don't see it nearly as much in IRL as I do here at SR, the petty bickering, the hair splitting, the invective....

I guess it's a lot harder to say things face to face, eye to eye, then it is from behind the anonymity of a user name and an ISP address, there is no "accountability".

I actually haven't even been posting here any more lately, the funny thing, is when I put my foot down and said "this is intolerable" it ignited a huge controversy.

I am coming to the conclusion that "attraction not promotion" might work better for me IRL. I was a gaming geek for a few years and part of that was getting in "flame wars" on gaming forums with moronic teenage boys with nothing to lose, truthfully, I almost look back on those days fondly, most of them displayed greater maturity and restraint then I have seen on SR from some posters.

No knocks on anyone here btw, this has just been my experience, if you are curious, all you have to do is follow the locked threads in my post history.

So anyway, I'm coming to the conclusion of "pick your battles" and this is one I don't feel I can "win", I can't overturn ignorance and prejudice in just a few well chosen words on an internet forum.

Good Topic Em.

[lizw]

Personally I think it is a bit ridiculous to compare what happens on here (in the online world) to what happens at face to face AA meetings and in AA in general.

People (myself included) can say whatever they want on here, that's the freedom of the internet and has nothing to do with recovery but at an real life AA meeting while one can still say whatever they want there, there is the chances you may get challenged.

If I am at a meeting, with recovery friends or anything similar and I hear or see something I don't agree with and I think it is important, I will say something. However I have learnt to do this is Al Anon not AA, sorry. Sure AA got me sober and taught me some basic living skills but when it comes to living successfully with other human beings, Al Anon have saved my butt.

I also think for me a good example of tolerating what is really untolerable behavior is I spent four years in a relationship with another AA member who behaved violently when he didn't get his own way. But I told myself it would get better with time (as he was sober less time than me) and in some ways it did but at the end of the day, in our society as a whole it is not acceptable to behave like this nor to blame the behavior on another person. This is the kind of stuff I think about when I hear those kinds of phrases, rather than what other people are doing or not doing.

And I am also of the belief that if I don't stand for something, I will fall for anything. The words 'people pleasing' springs to mind too as sometimes I don't want to say something incase others think I'm a b***h or a pain.

[bob_sapp]

Originally Posted by tiburon88

Why would anyone who has 50+ years of "sobriety" still need to go to AA meetings? I guess I just don't get it.

If you are healthy you never stop growing and learning... I hope when I am an old timer I am not a bitter old pr1ck and that I remain spiritually teachable.

[bob_sapp]

Originally Posted by Ago

I don't see it nearly as much in IRL as I do here at SR, the petty bickering, the hair splitting, the invective....

I once heard a guy in a meeting talk about having resentments against some other anonymous guy on a message board who somehow slandered him online.

[Rob B]

Originally Posted by tiburon88

Why would anyone who has 50+ years of "sobriety" still need to go to AA meetings? I guess I just don't get it.


tib

Maybe just maybe there is some connection between 50 years of love, service and action in the program of AA and sobriety?

[Rob B]

Originally Posted by sugErspun

Someone here, and maybe they will share - wrote an online posting "ideal". Seems like a good idea for everyone. I know it has helped me.

Sane Ideal For SR Conduct

When I wrote my 4th step, asking God's guidance to help me shape and form a sane and sound ideal for my intimate relationships was extremely helpful. I have continued to work with this concept, applying it to various parts of my life when it seems "my way" is creating suffering-for myself and others. In this spirit, I have gotten quite and asked for guidance regarding conduct on the internet and specifically this site. Here is what came to me, I ask others to consider doing the same.

Pray and get quiet before logging on

watch any emotional attachment

avoid personal judgement or opinion unless specifically asked for suggestions

Never post from a position of retaliation or defense

Do not intentionally post controversial material just to watch the drama unfold

Accept-I don't have to agree with a belief, but I don't have to waste energy trying to change someone who does not want to

This is my ideal, I will do my best to live up to it, God Bless.

One last thought.
I have heard and believe that live and let live should not open the gates towards apathy, as a friend of mine says, we better stand for something, or we'll fall for anything

[Tommyh]

Rob,thanks,thats great stuff for this alcoholic
I need to use it here and on another forum I go too.I`ll give it a try

[paulmh]

I like that Rob, thanks.

I personally don't believe in that "take what you want and leave the rest" stuff when it comes to AA. But it's a great rule of thumb at recovery forums.

[Carol87]

Rob ... thanks! Do you mind if I copy that to a couple other groups I go to?

[RufusACanal]

In Matthew 18:21-22, Then Peter came to him and asked, “Lord, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times?”

“No!” Jesus replied, “Seventy times seven!”

[RufusACanal]

Originally Posted by Emimily

I've read a lot on here lately that's super inflammatory, without being pulled. I've heard people say things that are not only untrue, but could be dangerous to newcomers... to anyone, really.

My earlier post is what I believe to be ideally how I want to be treated as well treat others. I am not that well yet and I find that some members refuse to change even after the many repeat instances of tolerance that are extended by this community. How can I best manage myself when I am intolerant? I again use the IGNORE feature of the site. I have no power to change another, but I do have a responsibility and an obligation to acknowledge my place in the scheme of things and take care of those things that I can.

Is it my place to check others for my perceived notion of their self-centeredness? No. I would damn sure like to, but each time I do, I fall right back into that old life. I do not agree that this is an example of standing for something or not; if anything it is a position of standing for God rather than me. I can display thoughts, ideas or opinions, but that is all they are. If my thoughts, ideas or opinions are not accepted, I need to move on. If I harbor the idea that I can change another here, whether for the good or otherwise, I am deluding myself and trying to delude you.

I have been one of those who was sicker than others; I may still be, but to attempt to manage another is not my place; it is a Higher Power's place. Now all I have to do is practice this more often in all of my affairs and if need be ending my use of SR.

R

[Emimily]

Thank you everyone, for your responses. Even the ones that miss the point entirely are appreciated.

The long and short of it is that I need to do what I've always needed to do - let it go, and move on to the next right thing. I need to be grateful that I don't have to act out the way these kids are... I get kind of maternal when it comes to my sponsees, and one of the teenagers that comes to my home group is being cruel to my sponsee. I don't know what to do, besides tell my girl that she needs to find other friends, and do the right thing. Taking the hard right instead of the easy left always pays off, but it's the HARD right for a reason.

Ugh. Maybe I'll actually trust God to take care of these things... when did I stop doing that? Time to start again.

[paulmh]

Even the ones that miss the point entirely are appreciated.

A paragon of tolerance..