In AA, working the program, with or without a sponsor?

[digderidoo]

I went to a meeting last night and came out of it not feeling to good about some of the people there.

Now within my region there are two cliques of people. Some who attend one area and another who attend the area i went to last night. I tend to go to the other meetings, mainly those from last nights group tend to dwell on the negatives of drinking, tend to talk about problems they're having, but it tends to be the same old story with them. Whereas the meetings i usually attend, tend to dwell on the positives of a sober lifestyle, rather than the negatives of a drinking one. Hope i am making sense so far.

To last nights meeting. A newcomer (about 3 months sober), shared about his sponsor. To my surprise many long term sobriety people in this group do not have a sponsor and never have! I was shocked, that many speak so highly of the program, yet work the steps on their own. It really made me wonder whether this is why i do not feel comfortable in this group, they always tend to be a negative sort. I wonder whether if they worked the program as the Big Book says, as to whether they would be a bit more positive. I know a number of people who steer clear from this meeting, because of the negativity. It was the first time i had come out of a meeting feeling worse than when i had entered. I really feel that i will not attend this meeting again.

Anyway the upshot of the meeting was that many with long term sobriety was telling this newcomer that he didn't need a sponsor, especially as he was having a few issues with him. I shared my feelings on the matter, but felt overwhelmed by the general feeling in the group.

It made me wonder whether there are many who do not use a sponsor, or is this something that seems to be limited towards this particular group?

Thanks

Paul

[Ago]

Me talking to me about me is what got me into this mess in the first place.

ISM = I Sponsor Myself which = I screw myself

course that's just me

[Rowan]

Hi Paul,

For me, I don't worry so much about others and whether they have a sponsor.

I believe strongly in sponsorship - so I have one. I can't imagine the mess I would be without her guidance.

[miss communicat]

do YOU have a sponsor? Do YOU work the 12 steps with a sponsor?

[miss communicat]

Originally Posted by Ago

Me talking to me about me is what got me into this mess in the first place.

ISM = I Sponsor Myself which = I screw myself

course that's just me

I was just about the write that (ISM=I Sponsor Myself) exactly!

[Sugah]

I couldn't imagine working steps without a sponsor.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

[TTOSBT]

I have not encountered a group such as this. In my community sponsorship is VERY strongly encouraged! And there is very little complaining or negativity. There is a ton of gratitude from my groups. That is HUGE for my recovery!

[BP44]

We Agnostics describes two groups of people in AA. The first group is described on page 52 and are having trouble with relationships, can't control their emotional nature, a prey to misery and depression, can't make a living, have a feeling of uselessness, full of fear, were unhappy and couldn't be of real help to other people. These are the bedevilements as the Big Book calls them. The central fact of these people's lives are themselves. The second group in AA flatly declares that since they have come to believe in a Power greater than themselves, and taken a certain attitude towards that Power, and do certain simple things there has been a revolutionary change in their way of living and thinking. In the face of collapse and despair, in the total failure of their human resources, they found that a new power, peace, happiness, and sense of direction flowed into them. This happened after they met a few simple requirements. They show how thw change came over them...the conciousness of the prescence or God is the most important fact of their lives. God is the central fact of this group's lives. This doesn't have much to do with sponsorship. It does, however, involve the focus of many an AA group. If you have large numbers of the first group in your AA meetings, you are going to have problem based meetings. If you have large numbers of the second group, in other words, folks who have recovered, you will have solution oriented meetings. In my experience solution based meetings will tend to strongly support sponsorship. No one thing one has to decide, is which group of alcoholics do I want to belong in? The ones that continue to realize the agnostic promises of the first group I mentioned, or the second, the group of recovered alcoholics?

[Rusty Zipper]

for me, i cant call myself out on my own sshhit...

so, i use a sponsor...

and as mentioned, if i tried to understand, then work the steps without one that has the knowladge of them, i would be writing my own 12 steps...

and hell, what order they would be in...

[navysteve]

Good question Dig,
To answer it depends on how you view sponsor. Do you want a sponsor as a guide through the steps who is simply another alcoholic who is your equal???? Then yes, I agree they can be beneficial.

i cant call myself out on my own sshhit...

so, i use a sponsor...

That in my opinion is one of the things wrong with sponsorship in AA today. A sponsor is ONLY There to guide us through the steps, they are not counselors, shhit detectors, or any other jobs AA sponsors take on.

Do you have to wait until your sponsor grants you permission to work a step????

Then you do not have a sponsor, you have a high priest!!!!

The first 164 pages of the Big Book do not mention the word sponsor. It actually suggests you take your 5th step with a doctor, minister, or your family:

Though we have no religious connection, we may still do well to talk with someone ordained by an established religion. We often find such a person quick to see and understand our problem. Of course, we sometimes encounter people
who do not understand alcoholics. If we cannot or would rather not do this, we search
our acquaintance for a close-mouthed, understanding friend. Perhaps our doctor or psychologist will be the person. It may be one of our own family, but we cannot
disclose anything to our wives or our parents which will hurt them and make them unhappy.

From the chapter into action

I do have a sponsor, I do not have to call him. He is my friend. We have an equal relationship. He never tells me what I should do. He does what a good AA member will do, share his experience, strength and hope. If he has none, he may try to point to someone who does. He does not call me on my ****!

Where I live now, sponsors have their sponsees mowing their lawns, cleaning their houses ( this is no BS) and call it going to any lengths. I call it abuse of sick people
Here is the AA pamphlet on sponsorship:

http://www.derbyshireaa.co.uk/sponsorship/Q&A.pdf

In A.A., sponsor and sponsored meet as equals, just as Bill and Dr.
Bob did. Essentially, the process of sponsorship is this: An alcoholic
who has made some progress in the recovery program shares that
experience on a continuous, individual basis with another alcoholic
who is attempting to attain or maintain sobriety through A.A. (Q&A
pamphlet)

As equals....

IS that how sponsorship goes in your area?????

Where I live right now I see sponsees mowing their sponsors lawns.
They get told where they can go to meetings, who they can associate
with and when they can work the steps.

That is not equal.

My sponsor is my friend, and guide.

Sponsorship can also mean the responsibility the group as a whole has
for helping the newcomer. (Q&A pamphlet)

I see groups up here hand out phone lists and call that reaching out
to the newcomer. Sponsors never call sponsees because it is on the
pigeon to call their sponsor.

Again I ask, is that equal????



Must the newcomer agree with everything the sponsor says?

If the sponsor's ideas sound strange or unclear, the newcomer had
better speak up and ask questions. Theirs is supposed to be an easy,
open relationship, in which both parties talk freely and honestly with
each other

I do apologize if my views seem offensive. I came to AA to be free,
not to be controlled, These are not time honored traditions fo love
and service. Sponsors are simply guides. I can only share my
experience, strength and hope.

I have had the chance to sponsor many men in AA. Back in 2004, I moved
to Maryland. While talking to a newcomer at a meeting I began to
inquire about sponsorship. He told me his sponsor had him stuck on
step one. He seemed to have a very good grasp on his situation. He
said he kept asking his sponsor if he could move on as he was anxious
to clean up his past. His sponsor told him Easy Does it, you didn't
get sick over night, you won't get well overnight either. He also read
in teh Big Book the word recovered, when he mentioned it in a meeting
he was chastized. " We are never recovered!" he was told.

Anyway, I told him that if he ever wanted to practice the steps as
outlined in the Big Book I would be happy to help. He began calling me
after he fired his sponsor ( My fault I guess). We bagan working the
steps together. On day 2 we did his fourth and fifth. I found out that
he had just been diagnosed as HIV positive ( something he wasn't
comfortable about talking in meetings). This explained his desire to
get right with God in my view.

We formally worked through the 12 steps together in about 3 weeks, It
would have been sooner but I have this little inconvenience called a job.

When we were done he asked " Now what". I told him to continue
cleaning up his wreckage, trusting in God and helping newcomers. WHich
he began doing. This is where things got tricky.

His attempts to work with new people did not go unnnoticed by the "Old
Guard" in AA. The sponsorship "High Priests" began chiding him for his
efforts. The difference betwen before and after experiencing the steps
was that they had no effect on him. He helped a few guys get through
the steps, some quickly, some not so quickly.

I recently received an email from him telling me that he was in
Florida and now had full blown Aids. He thanked me for helping him, I
thanked God for allowing me to be of service the way I think the
program wants me to be

and as mentioned, if i tried to understand, then work the steps without one that has the knowladge of them, i would be writing my own 12 steps...

and hell, what order they would be in...

What about the thousands in America that did exactly that when the Big Book was first written??? What about the tens of thousands who do that around the world today????

You may already have asked yourself why it is that
all of us become so very ill from drinking. Doubtless
you are curious to discover how and why, in the face
of expert opinion to the contrary, we have recovered
from a hopeless condition of mind and body. If you
are an alcoholic who wants to get over it, you may
already be asking—“What do I have to do?“
It is the purpose of this book to answer such questions
specifically.

BB pg 20

Its just a sad truth that if you want to keep something a secret in AA all you have to do is put it in the Big Book

All quotes from BB first edition

[tommyk]

My sponsor's primary purpose was in guiding me through the steps, and secondarily through the NA program in general.

That's the way I sponsor people too.

Sort of a 'teach them to fish', and not provide them with the fish.

After several years in the program I now see that being a sponsor means different things to different people. I've heard most everything mentioned so far, and while I agree to disagree with some of it, I do strongly suggest newcomers get a sponsor.

A young man recently asked me to be his sponsor. I asked him, "How much clean time do you have?" He replied, "I don't know, maybe a couple of days." I said, "Bullshit, you know exactly how much clean time you have, now.. how much?" He said, "Well I used today... but it was only alcohol, it wasn't my real drug of choice."

I went on to explain that he had just lied to me and himself twice, and that if he wanted me to be his sponsor he should be prepared to get called on his bullshit, come to meetings, and work the steps. He never came back to another meeting.

[Fulldresser4]

Well said, NavySteve. My sponsor is exactly this to me, my friend and my guide. She has something I want, peace and serenity, and she is here to help me on my journey. I do not have the years of experience that many of you have. That said, I see over and over the "you have to mow my lawn", "you have to clean my entire house", even " you have to babysit my kids" mentality. I also call it abuse of sick people (this is just my opinion). Matter of fact, it made me shy away from getting a sponsor for a while because the last thing I felt I needed was another boss. And I was blessed with my sponsor because she is truly a guide to me. I'm sure many won't agree with my view, but I will say this...this is my third trip on this ride, and this time I'm doing it right. With the help of my HP, God, my sponsor, AA, Celebrate Recovery, and a whole lot of prayer, one day at a time, it's working for me.

[navysteve]

I went on to explain that he had just lied to me and himself twice, and that if he wanted me to be his sponsor he should be prepared to get called on his bullshit, come to meetings, and work the steps. He never came back to another meeting.

Is that supposed to be a good thing? I don't understand? Newcomers lie, cheat, and steal ( not all, but many) How can we expect people to be honest who haven't worked the steps. What gets passed as tough love in the rooms runs people out of meetings

[Tazman53]

In my area a sponsor who has a sponsee doing things like mowing grass etc. for thier sponsee is as others have said.... Abusing a sponsee!!!

I am a firm beleiver in sponsorship, but a sponsor is imo, as already said an equal who has worked the steps and assists taking the sponsee through the steps, sharing thier ES&H along the way.

The only thing that I firmly expect of a sponsee is that they are honest with me and if we make an appointment he be there or call me and let me know he will be late. Both of those things are part of friendship and equality, friends do not lie to each other and they respect each other.

There are those who do get and stay sober without a sponsor, I am not here to pass judgement on them, I will just speak for myself, I could not of taken the steps properly on my own. In early sobriety I still had a very difficult time being brutally honest with myself about myself, without my sponsor sharing his ES&H in taking the steps and letting me know where he struggled and how he and his sponsor worked together to get through his own BS I could have never made it through my own BS.

Could I stay sober now without a sponsor? Probably I could, but I personally feel that in working with another man as his sponsor that I lead by example like my sponsor did, he has a sponsor, who has a sponsor, etc.

Every person I know in the rooms who has what I want has a sponsor and has taken the steps, I am a firm beleiver that if I want what someone else has, I should do as they do. The primary purpose of my sponsor today is to answer questions I have on sponsorship and as a friend.

[stone]

I couldn't have done the steps without a sponsor.

He wouldn't ask me to mow his lawn, lol.

Around here it is generally accepted that you should have a sponsor, I agree with that.

[navysteve]

I agree Taz. By allowing my sponsor to be of service to me I help him grow spiritually. I am actually being of service to him. I just don't agree with all the "suggestions" that aren't suggestions at all and how easy they get accepted. "Well, its suggested that if you jump out of a plane you wear a parachute" type crap. I don't expect anything at all out of newcomers. Those who lie, blow off getting together, or act selfishly are doing what newcomers do ( I recall reading they are not at fault somewhere). My Big Book gives me pretty clear direction about how to work with a new man. As you said, if they want what we have, they will do what we do

[EuroDrunk]

Hi Paul,

Here in Holland we seem to have 2 kinds of meetings. In the cities there are some strong meetings that stick to the format as I have encountered it elsewhere and that are goverened by the Traditions. In the countryside things can be quite different. Groups there tend to be centered around one or more people that run 'their' group rather like a club, according to their beliefs of what works. I have encountered / know of groups that do not work steps or have all kinds of procedures / rules for vetting new members. The same applies for sponsorship.

I prefer to attend groups that stay close to the program and traditions myself and found a sponsor at one. I believe working with, and just as important talking to, my sponsor to be a vital part of my recovery. I would advise anyone to find one early on. When I found a welcoming group with a a number of people with long term sobriety, I made it my home group. After a while I asked someone whose share's I could relate to and seemed to have the kind of sobriety I desired to be my sponsor. Together we discussed the Big Book and the steps. He invited/expected me to study both and guided me as I worked the steps. I'm sure I would not have understood / missed quite a bit without his help and guidance!

Hope this helps...

[digderidoo]

Maybe it does just seem to be this group. There are some in there that do have a sponsor, but the general consensus seems to be that you do not need one.

To be honest though, when i first started going at the beginning of the year, if i had heard this then, i believe it could have been a dangerous thing for me. I feel as though i need a sponsor, although we do have our disagreements at times.

I sought of felt for this new guy, if because of this meeting he decides to go it alone, then i think it's a dangerous thing for these long termers to have encouraged him that way. But only time will tell i guess.

Paul

[tommyk]

Is that supposed to be a good thing? I don't understand? Newcomers lie, cheat, and steal ( not all, but many) How can we expect people to be honest who haven't worked the steps. What gets passed as tough love in the rooms runs people out of meetings

Well, I honestly didn't know what to think of that situation, and I still don't. But I have come to the definite conclusion that being straight-forward, truthful, and honest about having me as a sponsor didn't run him out of the meeting. There's a bigger part of that story which may or may not be revealed later.

[navysteve]

I prefer to attend groups that stay close to the program and traditions myself and found a sponsor at one. I believe working with, and just as important talking to, my sponsor to be a vital part of my recovery. I would advise anyone to find one early on. When I found a welcoming group with a a number of people with long term sobriety, I made it my home group. After a while I asked someone whose share's I could relate to and seemed to have the kind of sobriety I desired to be my sponsor. Together we discussed the Big Book and the steps. He invited/expected me to study both and guided me as I worked the steps. I'm sure I would not have understood / missed quite a bit without his help and guidance!

You said something very important. You were invited into recovery. My first sponsor was the same way. My first sponsor never told me anything, he shared his experience with the steps. He would point things out and offer his insight. That is very different than calling people out. I don't place alot of emphasis on time myself. I have seen many with it who have nothing I want. Of course, the man who is my sponsor now has been sober an awful long time, but that is not what attracts me to him. It is the quality of his life. There is none of the arrogance and spiritual pride that runs rampant in the rooms. I stand by what I said earlier, tough love runs drunks out of the rooms. Page 90 of the Big Book tells me that I should let him alone because I may spoil a future opportunity. It says things like " show him, from your own experience", it never says tell him he is lying or is full of crap. We seem to like to let ourselves off the hook too often when our own defects block us from truly being useful. That kinda stuff may work on many, I see people outside the rooms everyday who want to be told what to do. I got sober to be free. I am not qualified to take anyone's inventory here on a message board. All I have is your words, but I have been in AA/NA long enough to see what tough love gets. I am not talking about rigorous honesty. True, we cannot force anyone to drink but our actions can either lead them to the bar or to God.

All BB quotes are from the first edition

[RufusACanal]

Sponsorship is vital to recovery; if you do not have a sponsor in early recovery, you are still trying to do it your way.

BP44 makes an excellent point concerning agnostic promises vs. Greater Power based solution groups, but I do not believe it is always so clear cut. While there is some broad based truth to this thought, the reality is we are all sick folks trying to get better. The sticking point for me is found in Chapter Five of the Big Book;

"Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a way of life which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."

Many of the folks I have worked with struggle with mental handicaps as a direct result of their Alcoholism; I am one as well who struggled to find God. Some of our SR members here work in their professional lives with men and women who wrestle with mental illness as well as Alcoholism and I believe can attest to the discouraging circumstances that plague those who are unable to be rigorously honest.

So does it not come down to just honesty, whether in the individual or in the group? Yes or no and to what degree does the mental stability play a role?

[Rusty Zipper]

when i hit the rooms at the age of 48 years, i was a mess...

i needed to be taken by the hand, shown how to not drink, and to not drink forever, as the BB does say...

i needed to be shown how my thinking, and reaction to life was my problem...

i couldnt see that, a BB teacher as we might call them, as some dont like the word sponsor...

hey, its just a word... like the word "God"

my teacher explained, talked, guided me to a understaning of the 12 steps, all of them...

calling me out was a part of it...

hey, why not say observing the reality in a conforming to God way?

and to those that are not willing to go to Any Lenghts, maybe not beat up enough...

i'm not into the politicaly correct AA

attend a BB step study, and my fifth go at it... and we cross talk, really called discussions...

and as the first people of AA, we get together, and even take others inventory...

if we cant see the problem, who else but another drunk may?

we have all grown immensely!

yep, carry the message, not the drunk

and for me, i believe part of that message is telling it how it is, not how i want it to be...

thanks for letting me share...

rz

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by digderidoo

To my surprise many long term sobriety people in this group do not have a sponsor and never have! I was shocked, that many speak so highly of the program, yet work the steps on their own.

Not all "long term sobriety people" are real alcoholics and can use psychological tricks & tips to stay sober so long as they stay motivated
(see "Certain Hard Drinker" on page 20).


I find that many of those who need a meeting every day fall into this category. Real Alcoholics use the spiritual tools learned from the 12 steps to stay sober. Those who have experienced the 10th step promise (page 85) don't NEED meetings anymore to stay sober but do WANT to go to meetings to do 12th step work.

[lizw]

In the town where I live most of the oldtimers had the same 'thoughts'. I.e. don't need a sponsor.

Most of them have passed on now but there is one who I see every so often, and she still doesn't need a sponsor (according to her as she is 30 years sober) however she is as mad as a snake. I.e. wants to kill herself most days.

Both her and her husband, he died with round 25 years soberity about 5 years ago, were icons in AA here. However they always advocated the need for a 4th and 5th step though.

Dunno if anyone else has noticed this but the process of the steps, usually occurs in people trying to get sober and stay sober with a sponsor or without one. When I say 'process' I mean surrender, asking for help, looking to see how ones faults got them here etc... IMO working with a sponsor makes the process more formal, as we all know it is easy to balk. Lol.

I've always had a sponsor. Sometimes more than 1. Personally I couldn't imagin not having one. The way I see myself is slightly warped so I need anothers feed back.

[IO Storm]

Sponsorship is vital to recovery; if you do not have a sponsor in early recovery, you are still trying to do it your way.

By George. Rufus! I think you've got it..

16 years in and out of the rooms..I never effectively used a a sponsor. And never

effectively stayed sober. Or clean.

This time..I waited over a year until I asked a dynamite lady to be mine.

Our second session..we had just spent 3 hours gong through the early part of

my life story... (It took several sessions...lol)..and I called my sis to come and

pick me up. My sister announced she would be delayed a half hour. I threw

a hissy. Stomped, ranted..my sponsor calmy said "Sit down and open your

Book to "Into Action". I began to read about how we thoughtwe had

mastered our emotions..how we tought we had conquered pride, and gained

humility..but we had not. Until we had told someone else all our life story.

I began to weep. I got up and hugged my dear sponsor. In a flash,

I knew God had placed her in my life. You see..I need someone to guide me like this.

She has 22 years. She prays for me, and my success. And she listens..to me

and HP. And I have grown. Tremendously...not so much I have noticed, but others.

I have taken my steps..and have 2 and a half years now.

So is still so much to do. I'm still not ready to sponsor...

That is her advice also..for now, because I tell her everything.

See..I am one of those who suffer from the grave emotional disorder thing..

Really. But..that is getting better too..

And I agree.

And thanks for letting me share.