Manners in A.A.

[jimhere]

I saw a similiar topic on the N.A. forum about cell-phones in meetings. Here is one of my pet peeves.

I went to one of the local open discussion MOTR meetings here in town tonight. Every once in a while I come across the real deal alcoholic at one of those and there happened to be one there tonight. When I go to meetings, I look for the face of desperation and saw it this evening. This guy was seven days away from a drink and still detoxing. He talked about how he was the end of his rope with drinking and couldn't drink and couldn't quit but sober was worse. He talked about his head wouldn't shut up, how he hated his dad and hated himself and thought about killing himself every waking moment. Lost job, nowhere to go, staying in a motel, those of you who do this work know the story. And how the only relief he found was for an hour or so at a meeting. But then he had to go back to the motel and lay there staring at the ceiling all night while his head goes on and on. In essence he described me without a drink and without an answer. And it is my belief that if an alcoholic can't come away from an AA meeting with a real answer, something is wrong.

After the meeting I made a bee line for him and Twelfth-Stepped him. After I qualified him, I was telling him about myself and how I had found an answer and had one for him if he wanted it. During this time about four people interupted us, wanting to help this guy by giving him their phone numbers. The guy is dying, he doesn't need phone numbers, he needs first aid. Every time I politely told the interupters "Do you mind? We are on a life and death errand here." The last one was a woman who wanted to say something to the guy. Once again I thanked her but let her know that we were doing some Twelfth-Step work here. After she walked away I told the guy we should go somewhere where we wouldn't be bothered. I heard the woman say "What an a-hole!"

Now I'm not always Mr. Manners, but we AA's are about the most ill-mannered people on the planet. We interupt people in the middle of conversation, we walk in front of people when they are speaking, we answer our phones in the meeting. At my home group's open speaker meeting, a guy got up and answered his phone, walking right in front of the podium while the speaker was speaking. When I called him on it after the meeting, he didn't see anything wrong with it. But I guess I've forgotten that "We are sick alcoholics and it's about progress and not perfection."

One time some one told me that half the trick of living a spiritual life is learning some manners.
Jim

[Latte]

Yes, people can be rude but seriously, you had a job to do and you did it. You took charge of the situation and helped the person who needed it. You can get angry and upset or be greatful that you were able to keep your cool and help him.

[Ago]

Originally Posted by Latte

Yes, people can be rude but seriously, you had a job to do and you did it. You took charge of the situation and helped the person who needed it. You can get angry and upset or be greatful that you were able to keep your cool and help him.

I'm onna have to go with Latte on this one....some are sicker then others, and remember, it's better to give a resentment then get one, I have no problem telling someone to "sod" off if I need to, first politely then in my own fashion.

there is a "cure" for untreated alcoholism, but there is no cure for stupidity, it helps me to remember that on occasion, except of course when it's me, in which case one can hope, can't one?

especially when i get mad at stupid oblivious people, for some reason I always feel real stupid for wasting my energy later.

[CarolD]

Last year...my home group added this to our opening format

"Please turn off your cell phones during our meeting hour.
If you have family needing attention...do put on
vibrate and go to the kitchen to speak. Thanks!"

Very simple and has been working quite well.

I guess we are fortunate...as we have 5 rooms
other than our meeting room for private
conversations. They are often used.

My pet peeve about manners in meetings?
Men who wear caps inside...and even when
bowing their head in prayer.

[jimhere]

Originally Posted by Latte

Yes, people can be rude but seriously, you had a job to do and you did it. You took charge of the situation and helped the person who needed it. You can get angry and upset or be greatful that you were able to keep your cool and help him.

I'm not angry. I guess this is one of those "Just when you thought you've seen it all" kind of things. These people are not stupid. Just self-centered.

[doorknob]

I leave my cell in the car, but don't see how a cap hurts anything.

[RufusACanal]

Good thread Jim and good to hear you this morning. I no longer spend time after a meeting with men in need at the meeting site if possible, but rather make arrangements to meet elsewhere for privacy's sake if nothing else. Like bugs to a lamp, members will flock to a new person after a meeting to squeeze a shoulder, offer a slip of paper or their best wishes. While this is good, I wait to see if another would like the opportunity to help the man; I don't need to be the savior of all today and I feel that others need to make the effort to extend the hand as well. God will supply me with opportunities to help others, so I have no fear in this regard.

Maybe, we are all using the same hymn in AA, but rarely are we on the same song, especially when it comes to helping the newcomer and taking those first few steps to approach and offer the hand of help. Once I qualify, I too desire to help, but have found that my efforts are best if we are alone and without the actions and attitudes of others; Twelfth Step work is intimate and deserves my undivided attention. I realize that others will make gratuitous gestures after a meeting if so moved, so I wait until they pass on by, ever hopeful that someone will latch on to the man to give him their ESH. What most miss in this experience is the opportunity to acknowledge their Higher Power's hand in not just the newcomers life but in their own life as well. I am not living a New Life by my own Power, even though I sometimes battle in the appearance that I have a true hand in it. This gift of continued life is not free; say what you will, but I believe a price is necessary and the cost is my service to others. The Big Book is clear on Twelve Step work; in order to keep what you have you must give it away. Folks here and at meetings use excuses that almost make me blush when they justify their lack of action just to get out of serving others both in Sponsorship and in Twelve Step work. I understand you can't give away what you do not have, but why are you not working to get that which you do not have. Usually, once I hear the excuse for this or that, I assume there will be more excuses and frankly I write these folks off as not ready for a New Life. Recovery is fairly cut and dry; get to work.

I have been called many thing in this life and a**hole is one of my favorites, in fact I rather revel when the term is applied to me. I do not make many friends in the management style I use in my career, but it appears that those who learn what I offer, learn and even possibly look back on the experience with some small respect. If I have given the tools to equip another to live free and they grasp the chance with open eyes, they most probably will succeed and I will have paid my tab once again to a loving and caring Power.

[tommyk]

Good thread Jim and good to hear you this morning. I no longer spend time after a meeting with men in need at the meeting site if possible, but rather make arrangements to meet elsewhere for privacy's sake if nothing else. Like bugs to a lamp, members will flock to a new person after a meeting to squeeze a shoulder, offer a slip of paper or their best wishes.

My 'pet peeves' are mine to solve - for I am powerless over the behavior of others.

Easy solution to the situation - meet in private. So logical, so simple (no offense).

I am thrilled to know that several people interrupted in an effort to help a newcomer.

Just my opinion.

[stone]

Yea, Jim it sounds like this was all about you and your mission.
People giving their numbers is a bad thing? Only cos it pissed you off. All I read was some guy with a huge ego getting annoyed.

[Rowan]

Jim, I'm glad you were there to 12 Step this guy. This guy wasn't going to use a phone number - he needed face to face identification and help.
People are often well-intentioned, but poor mannered. And, it's just as important how WE respond: "Thanks for passing on your phone number, please excuse us for a few minutes while we speak in private."

[Dean62]

I would rather see people flock to a newcomer then see somebody walk out the door alone without saying a word. Having had many false starts before getting sober I found myself as the newcomer with only hours of sobriety in a meeting that was new to me on several occasions. Way to many times after watching people turn away from me as if I wasn't even there I walked out alone. I have seen this happen to many others and I have no idea if they ever came back. Fortunately for me I did.

Personally I would love to see people fighting over newcomers in my area.

[laurie6781]

Excellent thread Jim.

I too usually look for the ones that are still suffering. I always seem to pick 'the sicker the better' lol and thus have learned that after the meeting I get them out of there as quickly as possible and take them somewhere, where we can talk and I can try and get them to eat a little soup or something 'light' knowing their stomach is also in bad shape.

I know that folks like you described mean well. They just haven't maybe had the opportunity yet of doing a '12 step call' on a 'wet one' or nearly 'wet one'. Thankfully, I had a sponsor that took me with (dragged me, lol) on many a 12 step call in my early sobriety and it was usually on a 'wet one.'

You did good my friend. That is what our program is all about.

As to cell phones, most of the meetings I attend, and no I don't go that often anymore, but still get many calls to 12 step, lol the opening statements have a very similar warning as to what Carol posted. Rarely do I hear a cell phone ring in a meeting, mine included. It stays in my pocket on vibrate, as do others, lol That way I can look to see who is calling and if not important or should I say more important than my meeting let it go to voice mail. If it is a call I have been waiting for, I can leave the meeting and go outside to answer the call.

Unfortunately, many folks today think just giving their phone number is doing 12 step work. I will concede that is is a small, very small part of 12 step work, but in M H O real 12 step work is so much MORE than that.

You demonstrated a 12 step call last night Jim. Someone got the message, and others saw how to do it. You will never know how your action last night affected others, but I suspect that at least one person will remember and start doing what you did.

Thank you for this thread, it is a VERY IMPORTANT topic in my mind.

J M H O

Love and hugs,

[sailorjohn]

Originally Posted by jimhere

One time some one told me that half the trick of living a spiritual life is learning some manners.
Jim

IMO-none of my opinions are humble, if they were I wouldn't be expressing them-if you're living a spiritual life of any quality the manners will just flow out of that naturally.

[jimhere]

Originally Posted by stone

Yea, Jim it sounds like this was all about you and your mission.
People giving their numbers is a bad thing? Only cos it pissed you off. All I read was some guy with a huge ego getting annoyed.

I figured I would take some heat here on this site as well. I am used to it. I am used to be called arrogant, nazi, big ego, etc.

One thing you are right about is that it is about me and my primary purpose, or my mission as you you call it. The only reason I go to a meeting like that where most are just there to socialize and, as Laurie said, have no real clue about how to help the real deal alcoholic except to give out phone numbers, is to find that kind of guy that I talked to last night.

I know these people are well-intentioned. I didn't say that they are bad people. Their intentions are not what annoys me. What annoys me is their rude behavior. Even in everyday, workaday life, I would consider it rude to horn in on a private conversation.

Anyway, I don't feel any need to have to defend my actions.

[jimhere]

By the way, I spoke with the man this morning. I had to get up early and work a few hours, so I am going to take a nap and then hook up with him this afternoon. I'll have him writing inventory by this time next week.

[Lily]

Jim,

I think that the 4 ppl who came up to you to give the guy their numbers were trying to help the best they knew how. Perhaps they didn't know how to 12 step him, I know I wouldn't, so they gave all they had.

I am glad you were there, that was a divine intervention, and that he was willing to listen.

I do not think that lady should have called you anything though, that was just WRONG. Name calling is very juvenile, but she was probably embarressed because she too wanted to give what she had, and saw you as someone who maybe had more? I dunno...

I know that when I see hurting ppl at meetings, people who are dying, I too want to run and help them too. I don't know if perhaps I saw someone else talking to them and wanted to pass them my number, I may have too???

[Music]

Originally Posted by jimhere

One thing you are right about is that it is about me and my primary purpose, or my mission as you you call it. The only reason I go to a meeting like that where most are just there to socialize and, as Laurie said, have no real clue about how to help the real deal alcoholic except to give out phone numbers, is to find that kind of guy that I talked to last night.

What annoys me is their rude behavior. Even in everyday, workaday life, I would consider it rude to horn in on a private conversation.

Hi Jim,
I know what you're saying and I'm not here to criticize what you did, but don't forget, it's not my primary missing or purpose to carry the message, it's all of our business to carry the message and it's our singleness of purpose. I'm a "real deal alcoholic" and one of the first things I was told was to get as many numbers as possible so I had plenty of contacts for talk, rides to meetings, etc. The people who were trying to give out their numbers were doing their best to help this guy. If you want a "private" meeting, I'd suggest somewhere other than an AA meeting where others are trying to work their program by trying to carry the message of sobriety. I have to remember that "my" message is just that. IT'S MINE!! There are plenty more messages out there that are just as important.

[jimhere]

I do appreciate all your input here.
Jim

[nandm]

A couple of things have helped my home group to deal with these things. First at the start of the meeting everyone is requested to turn off their cell phones.
Secondly, we have newcomers packets with some basic AA material in them such as "What is a Sponsor", "Am I an alcoholic", a meeting schedule, etc.... in them. Then when a newcomer identifies themself at the begining of the meeting when we ask if anyone is there for their first, second, or third meeting since their last drink, the secretary sends a packet around to have members put their name and phone number on it. If the newcomer is a man then the men sign if a women then women sign. Then at the end of the meeting the secretary gives the envelope to the newcomer with a brief explanation. That leaves plenty of time for someone to twelve step the person and prevents people from coming up and interupting to provide their phone numbers while that is happening.

Thanks for the topic I appreciate it.

[jimhere]

Like I have said, it is not the good intentions that are the problem.

I will say that if a recovered alcoholic can't Twelfth-Step a suffering alcoholic after an AA meeting in a hall where AA groups meet, what's the point of having a meeting to begin with?

At my home group's meeting, at the end of the meeting, the secretary will ask if there is anyone present who would like a sponsor from our group and if there is will they raise their hand. If some one does raise their hand, the secretary then says something like "Someone will approach you after the meeting, please don't leave without that happening."

When someone raises their hand and I see another group member talking with them after the meeting, I will not get in the middle of that. It is rude and disrespectful.
Jim

[Tommyh]

Jim,what is a MOTR meeting?

our group announces at the start of the meeting to pls trun off all cell phones.
but that don`t mean they will do it
I did not show manners or respect when I was new,I had to be taught.Over time I learned.My first sponsor helped me out too.Ouch!
But this past Thursday I got a chance to talk with a man from Cal.
He said he attended SODA AA meetings
I asked what they was
He said
structured
organized
disciplined
accountable

I guess no meeting is perfect,but some are more orderly than others.I like orderly meetings because I need order in my life.Hang in there Jim,the more guys we sponsor,the more we can help them realize the importance of a good well behaved meeting.

[jimhere]

Tommy,

MOTR is middle-of-the-road. Like in the book, no middle-of-the-road solution. A MOTR meeting is exactly that. A bunch of people, more than likely hard drinkers, who think the meeting is there for them to socialize with their MOTR friends. And, as been said, whose idea of Twelfth-Step work is to hand out meeting schedules with phone numbers and give people platitudes and tell them to keep coming back and not leave before the miracle happens.

By the way, these people were not newcomers. I've seen most of them around for years.

I like theSODA acronym. I think my group's meeting fits that. I like the structured meetings myself. I believe they are more condusive to carrying the AA message.
Jim

[Fulldresser4]

Just my two cents here regarding cell phones....I like how one of the gentleman chairs a meeting here, saying "If you are blessed enough to have a cell phone, please turn it on vibrate or turn it off". And I also like what he says about passing the basket...If you have a dollar leave it, if you don't you will someday."

I am only just about 90 days sober, and had it not been for people offering phone numbers, even if I didn't use them, it meant a lot to me. Absolutely no offense intended here, but a few of the people that did come up to me after the meeting and give me "advice" where exactly the people that were not good for me, e.g. control freaks and thirteenth steppers. I agree with the others about inviting someone to meeting privately for a cup of coffee or some soup. That said, I don't know a thing about the twelfth step yet so this is merely my experience.

As far as giving numbers, in the meetings I go to, we generally grab a schedule and write numbers on it (ladies for ladies, men for men) and someone will quietly pass it to the newcomer during or after the meeting. I do like the idea of the envelope though. It is not on me to decide whom is best suited to help the newcomer...that is God's work.

JMHO.

Annie

[FightingIrish]

This is one of my largest pet peeves (a conversation I am in being hijacked by someone who doesn't seem to notice that one had been taking place). But it seems that I am unusual in this, because people do it all the time. I realize it goes all the way back to my large-family origins, when people would interrupt each other all the time. Ultimately it's something I need to deal with, since I am the one getting the resentment, and usually not the other person.

I agree that how I/we handle the situation is what defines the situation. I am new and trying to learn the balance between being forceful and being a doormat.

M

Originally Posted by jimhere

When someone raises their hand and I see another group member talking with them after the meeting, I will not get in the middle of that. It is rude and disrespectful.
Jim

[BP44]

My home group is one in which a majority of the members will come early and stay late. I have found that it is virtually impossible to have an entirely private conversation before or after the meeting unless we go elsewhere, or wait long enough for folks to leave and lock up when we are done. It's particularly difficult in large groups. One of the things I like to get established is this, is my man serious? He's sought me out for some reason. He's seen how I carry myself, heard something I've shared etc. Something has told this guy, "I want what he has". Now we're going to find out. I'll tell him what my sponsor and grand sponsor told me when I met them after the meeting, "if you are ready to do the work, I can help you". I don't offer them little oneliners like "just keep coming back to these meetings you'll be alright". I have a solution, a way out. He needs to leave there with the same hope that I had. He gets my number and is instructed to call me, tomorrow at the latest, later in the day if need be. I make sure he knows that I like to have a face to face somewhere private as soon as possible. If he shows up, he's surrendered to me, after that meeting he surrenders to the process. I will put into it what he does. If he doesn't show or doesn't stay, I'll find another alcoholic to work with. He is made aware of this on the front end. We start from the title page and move forward from there. I have only picked up sponsees from my home group and have no experience getting new people from other groups. But if and when I do, it's important, particularly if it's a MOTR group that I expose this man quickly to a purposeful group. Part of the process in all of this is to teach the man as I was taught, how to be an effective member in AA. He will learn things like turn your cell phone off you're not going to get a call from the president. Show up early, pay attention and stay late. Respect singleness of purpose leave anda outside. Get your coffee before the meeting starts. I have never seen someone come to AA knowing how to behave and conduct themselves as a member of AA. That's part of effective sponsorship. Good thread.