Manners in A.A.

[Tazman53]

Bugs I have 6 kids, the 3 oldest grew up watching thier dad go from being a heavy drinker to a drunk, during thier formative years the only thing they saw in me was an example of the progrssion of alcoholism.

My oldest daughter rarely drinks, she has told me that my drinking while she was growing up was an education in why she needed to watch her own drinking very carefully. She did come home at the age of 14 so drunk she could hardly stand, she is not 31 and told me she has not been drunk or even close since.

My second oldest is almost 30 now, she may very well be an alcoholic, but in the early stages of it, she knows my story, she is part of it.

My son, the youngest of the 3 from my first marriage is an alcoholic, when I was still drinking and he was home from the war, we pounded quite a few beers together. He was among the folks in my family later on that really pushed me to no avail to stop drinking. Well he is an alcoholic as well. He called me when he decided he to was an alcoholic because he had seen me at my worse and has seen my recovery. He did like your son, he had a problem, he called the closest person to him that had found a solution to that problem when he wanted help. He has been sober ever since.

My step daughter who is 22 has said she probably is an alcoholic as well (Her father is a recovered alcoholic) has been with me since she was 4, she saw me at my worse and was ecstatic when I got sober is in that phase of "Well I can control it.", she is not bad right now, but has told me she knows who to come to if she starts having problems.

The twins who are 16 were exposed to my worse as well, it took them a while to accept my recovery as being the real deal, have told both my wife & I that they have both tried wine coolers, but seeing what I went through and what I put them through have basically (For now), made a decision to stay clear of all drugs and booze.

Bugs if anything from my experience my kids have in the long run become less likely to follow the path I did in my alcoholism, I exposed them to where it could take them in life and for now they do not want to go there.

My parents raised me in a drug & alcohol free home, my father was a recovered alcoholic and made sure that my brother and I were well aware of it, I made my decisions in life and continued to allow my alcoholism to progress, not due to a darn thing my parents did or did not do, but due to the path I chose!

As a parent and an alcoholic my experience has been that when it comes to booze and alcohol unless a parent is providing and encouraging their children to drink and/or do drugs, children will follow the path they are going to follow come hell, high water, or thier parents!

Bugs you and your son remain in my prayers, my experience I will pass on to you is I found that the best thing I can do for my children today is to stay sober today and be the best parent I can be today. Staying sober and being the best me I can be is all them amends my children want or need from me.

When I formally did my 9th step amends with my kids, every single one of them hugged me and told me that all they wanted of me was to stay sober and be who I was.... that was it! They want of me what I as a parent want of them, that simple.

My amends is a living amends I carry out one day at a time.

Bugs obviously you have done a fine job with your son, he came to you when he had a problem and you have been able to point him in a good direction.

[RobbyRobot]

Great thread and good people all. Like others, I too will combine responses into one post.

Jim,
thanks for explaining yourself out a bit more. You don't really get my questions though, so i did not get the response I was encouraging. It's okay like i had already said, you may not want to answer them. i know you think you did anyways, so don't sweat it. You're really into trying to educate me instead of having a dialogue with me... I respect that education, but that was never part of my request to you. The Big Book makes total sense to me, and i was never confused by what you were saying...

To be honest, i was fairly clear, i had thought anyways, [marked in bold even]that i found your posts to be conflictive with themselves. ie you're confused about what your saying not me about what i am reading. But, you know, the moment has passed, and its all water under the bridge now to me, and in a later post you indicated you were done with futher talk as well i think. In any case, i don't enjoy debates much, i do enjoy dialogues though. You are very serious about your convictions and i respect that. you dont waffle and you dont make believe and hold court, and i respect that as well. There'll be other times we will meet here on the forums i'm sure, and another chance at dialogue, over these same issues, will present. until then Jim, my regards.

Adam,
i can't accept your apology because i don't see the requirement for it. I do see the idea behind it though, and i appreciate your earnest heart and mind munching over the posts here and then validating with your own ES&H. Rock On. 20 months is also a real achievment too, my young friend, and if i can i would offer this: i appreciate somethings in this thread are crystal clear to you now and may always remain so forever more. Other things, you will find, as the years fly by, not so much do they remain crystal. They change as they should, they mature and they renew into a better choice a better action a better life.

So always remain open and challenging as you are today, and do not think it awkward if at first the answers you seek are not quickly presented. Let me tell you this: sobriety is not measured by length of days served but by good service given in any one day. Any serious alcoholic can achieve that in a single day at any AA meeting in any room under any conditions present there at any time. It's not rocket science, that is why it works so well for so many day in and day out. later guy, and my regards,



From within the Big Book Appendices II Spiritual Experiences i quote:

The terms “spiritual experience” and “spiritual awakening” are used many times in this book which, upon careful reading, shows that the personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism has manifested itself among us in many different forms.

Yet it is true that our first printing gave many readers the impression that these personality changes, or religious experiences, must be in the nature of sudden and spectacular upheavals. Happily for everyone, this conclusion is erroneous.

In the first few chapters a number of sudden revolutionary changes are described. Though it was not our intention to create such an impression, many alcoholics have nevertheless concluded that in order to recover they must acquire an immediate and overwhelming “God-consciousness” followed at once by a vast change in feeling and outlook.

Among our rapidly growing membership of thousands of alcoholics such transformations, though frequent, are by no means the rule. Most of our experiences are what the psychologist William James calls the “educational variety” because they develop slowly over a period of time. Quite often friends of the newcomer are aware of the difference long before he is himself. He finally realizes that he has undergone a profound alteration in his reaction to life; that such a change could hardly have been brought about by himself alone. What often takes place in a few months could seldom have been accomplished by years of self-discipline. With few exceptions our members find that they have tapped an unsuspected inner resource which they presently identify with their own conception of a Power greater than themselves.

Most of us think this awareness of a Power greater than ourselves is the essence of spiritual experience. Our more religious members call it “God-consciousness.”

Most emphatically we wish to say that any alcoholic capable of honestly facing his problems in the light of our experience can recover, provided he does not close his mind to all spiritual concepts. He can only be defeated by an attitude of intolerance or belligerent denial.

We find that no one need have difficulty with the spirituality of the program. Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable.

“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation.”

—Herbert Spencer


the above quote does it all for me. The key sentence: "Most of us think this awareness of a Power greater than ourselves is the essence of spiritual experience."

Awareness. Simple awareness is the essence. No debates or judgements no morals or challenges to authenticity. No special requirements or qualifications. No one need be left out and no one already in has any special merit or gift. Simple awareness of something bigger than our poor selves. Awareness.

Rock On DK !!

Hey everybody, i have purposely held back, and as Ago joked, old timers do have two by fours freely given them by unsuspecting persons. We smile and graciously receive them while remembering the Serenity Prayer. Sweeeeet !!



RobbyRobot


BB quote:Alcoholics Anonymous
First Edition

[RufusACanal]

Gezz RR, what is this? You start to portray some truly awesome and intense humility and then you cave in to narcissism; old timer my eye! Enjoy your posts.

Boleo, what about answer D. All of the above. Thank you for your using the word of the day ! I turned six shades of pissed out when my Sponsor told me some time ago that I enjoyed pontificating to the masses; damn, give credit where credit is due, I simply enjoy the sound of my own voice!

[Fulldresser4]

Well said...
"I have also watched old timer in AA transform, sometimes into rigid, pious, angry people. What does that prove???

My spiritual condition is not contingent upon pontification at all.

The only special ability I have is my experience.

Who am I to question anothers path?"

In my opinion, that is so true. I have seen the old timers whom I thought had what I wanted. But more was revealed. I have seen people with 30 years "sober" tell people that their way was the only way. The only AA meeting I ever walked out of (with my apologies to the group) was a meeting in which this man told a woman after she shared her opinion that if she didn't like it she could leave, which she did. When it was my time to share I stated that AA had taught me love, understanding, and non-judgement, and this certainly wasn't it. I was then verbally attacked by the rest of the room. I humbly apologized and left the room, making my amends to those I felt I needed to after the meeting.

And Robby Robot, so eloquently true.

JMHO.

[Tazman53]

I simply enjoy the sound of my own voice

LOL Man can I relate to that!!

[RufusACanal]

..and here I thought I had a real career in Radio!

[jimhere]

Robby,

In going back and reading your posts, I don't see the the conflict at all in the two statements Honestly I don't see how much clearer I could have as my statements that highlighted are not conflictive at all. I'm not confused at all about what I'm saying, because it is my experience.

Appears to me that you may not be confused about what I was saying, but about what I meant. If my experience doesn't make sense to you I'm not going to change it so that it will. As for reading the book and knowing what the words mean, there is a big difference between knowing and knowing.

Perhaps I can ask you to clarify what it is you are wanting, what's behind this desire to "dialogue.". I will ask you to please do that via pm, as I think this thread has served its purpose.
Jim

[RobbyRobot]

Jim,
Thanks, like i said friend, we will meet up again in the forums, so thanks for the pm offer anyways.

Robby

[353]

Hey all'

This thread has taken some twists and turns, really good stuff...

I think ago summed it up best in this one statement...

The Spiritual Axiom is "If I am upset, there is something wrong with me"
Thank God I have found a solution...a way to find out, on a daily basis, what's wrong with me. The program of AA works!

God's Peace

[sugErspun]

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot

Adam,
i can't accept your apology because i don't see the requirement for it. I do see the idea behind it though, and i appreciate your earnest heart and mind munching over the posts here and then validating with your own ES&H. Rock On. 20 months is also a real achievment too, my young friend, and if i can i would offer this: i appreciate somethings in this thread are crystal clear to you now and may always remain so forever more. Other things, you will find, as the years fly by, not so much do they remain crystal. They change as they should, they mature and they renew into a better choice a better action a better life.

So always remain open and challenging as you are today, and do not think it awkward if at first the answers you seek are not quickly presented. Let me tell you this: sobriety is not measured by length of days served but by good service given in any one day. Any serious alcoholic can achieve that in a single day at any AA meeting in any room under any conditions present there at any time. It's not rocket science, that is why it works so well for so many day in and day out. later guy, and my regards,

Thanks RR,

I want to clarify that my apology was to everyone that had to read the thread - it was not directed at any single individual. I was off-topic and frankly, it was none of business to get involved.

I appreciate the rest of your opinion.

[Boleo]

One of my favorite meetings is held early Sunday morning in the basement of a restaurant. Because you have to go through the kitchen, down the stairs and all the way to the end of a dark hallway few people know how to find it.

The regulars there have known each other for decades and the closest thing to newcomers are sponcees of some old-timers there, so there is almost never a true newcomer. With no newcomers in the room to worry about offending, we all tend to go deep with resentments, criticism and unconventional insights.

Most of these good-old-timers are humble, loving and tolerant at meetings where some new people might walk out. But in the presence of a seasoned audience I get to see the fur fly so to speak. One of the common phrases is "I'm not co-signing anyone's BS.

I get to see where my "opinions" stand with a frank and experienced audience. I have found that the deeper I debate the more I learn. If all we ever do is slap each other on the back, how many of us will see our Blind-spots and Fallacies?
(Something we all have)

[CAPTAINZING2000]

We've made a point in always saying to turn off the phones or, set to vibrate before we start a meeting.

The only reason I stopped by the site tonight was a story I read online about a college kid overdosing on a web cam in front of viewers. Some laughed obout it. Some were horrified over it. They did call the owner of the site. He notified police too late.

There were even people encouraging this young man to do it!!

You were doing what you thought best to help someone. Just guessing, the offers from others were made with good intentions but, were also from inexperienced members.
I was willing to go to any lengths suggested coming into AA. Hopefully, you was able to plant a seed.

Something that comes to mind. The ones of us that, have been around the tables for a considerable amount of time, see that look on the new commers face. Nothing else has to be even said at the meeting that night after I see their pained expression

[barb dwyer]

Hi {{{{jimhere}}}}

wow.
Loogit what YOU did. LOL!

When I read your initial post - the first thought I had was...

When I get 'going' it's apparently my lesson lately to remember that everything is on GOD'S time.
Not mine.
I'm speaking of the interruptions and all that.
What I sensed was that you were committed to this conversation, and the interruptions were annoying because there was a flow going on ...
yeah.
I do that too.
Almost always, when I look back on it -
it went exactly as it should have gone.

Phonecalls during meetings clench my jaw as well.
Not one person in this city is waiting for
or even being considered for
a presidential appointment.

Not a single drunk in Butte is up for Secretary of State.

And if they were -
they'd be smart emough to turn their phones off.

To me, it's disrespectful of the sacredness or recovery.

There's an energy that happens,
even at (what was it? MOTR metings)
and to me...
that energy is Sacred.
And should be respected as such.

That energy always winds up
doing what it intended anyway.
And doing what most needs to be done in the moment.

I think people fear that energy
and they interrupt it.
People fear that energy
because they can't explain it
or control it.

But it always winds up doing what it needs to anyhow.
It's the majick of meetings.

When I'm all pumped up on a mission -
like talking to someone or I get on a roll...
I forget that.

Lastly -
the groups I'm in -
hand around a meeting schedule with spaces on the back for phone numbers during the meeting.
Men put their #'s on the newcomer's for a guy in his first meeting
same for women.
I've been in meetings that have had several lists going at once during the meeting.

[stone]

Originally Posted by barb dwyer

Hi {{{{jimhere}}}}

wow.
Loogit what YOU did. LOL!

When I read your initial post - the first thought I had was...

When I get 'going' it's apparently my lesson lately to remember that everything is on GOD'S time.
Not mine.
I'm speaking of the interruptions and all that.
What I sensed was that you were committed to this conversation, and the interruptions were annoying because there was a flow going on ...
yeah.
I do that too.
Almost always, when I look back on it -
it went exactly as it should have gone.

Yea, that's what I meant. LOL

[jimhere]

"Everything happens in God's time, not mine...."

That's what I meant too.

There is only one time and that is God's time and that is now. It is on time, right now. Not tomorrow or next week.

In doing Twelfth-Step work, timing is everything. Look at Bill's Story. Bill was in just the right shape when Ebby showed up. Dr. Silkworth had told Bill that there was nothing more that could be done for him, that he would have to either be locked up or go insane or drink himself to death. Bill had pretty much resigned himself to that fate and was sitting in his kitchen in his underwear drinking gin when Ebby showed up with the spiritual answer. Bill said he was "Shocked but interested. I had to be, for I was hopeless."

If Ebby had shown up two months earlier, Bill probably wouldn't have listened. If Ebby had shown up two months later, Bill might not have been in any shape to listen.

Last week, when I heard this man talk about the shape he was in, I knew he was tired. And if you are tired I have an answer for you. If you're not tired, I still have an answer, but you probably won't listen. But I knew this guy was tired and that is why I made a beeline for him. The old "Here's my number, call before you drink" routine wouldn't have worked for him. The "Don't drink and keep coming back, you'll be OK" isn't answer for him. I knew that because he confirmed that by telling me that approach had failed for him in the past. And he continues to confirm it by his actions. He is currently writing an inventory, which we'll Fifth Step this coming Friday.

So, yeah I know it's God's time. But God's time is now. "Remember there is One who has all power-that one is God. May you experience Him NOW."
Jim

Big Book reference from Alcoholics Anonymous, First Edition

[navysteve]

So, yeah I know it's God's time. But God's time is now. "Remember there is One who has all power-that one is God. May you experience Him NOW."

Amen Jim. That is why it is so important for us to remain in fit spiritual condition. Someone elses recovery may depend upon us carrying the message

[Fulldresser4]

Jim...respectfully, in my opinion, you are NOT God, nor do you know His time.

[navysteve]

I think what it comes down to is being ready. Not to confuse apathy with acceptance, and t be proactive in recovery:

The old "Here's my number, call before you drink" routine wouldn't have worked for him. The "Don't drink and keep coming back, you'll be OK" isn't answer for him.

That isn't 12th step work. Because Jim's eyes are open, and he is in tune with his higher power, he knew instinctively what to do.

When someone walks into the rooms of an AA meeting, then it might be time. If I believe the rhetoric that there are no coincidences, then when someone shows up at a meeting there is a purpose. I don't believe the purpose is for me to passively give them my number and direct them to call me if they want to drink, I believe they are there to provide me with an opportunity to return the gift that was freely given to me. If they are alcoholic, they might just need the solution I have found, and I know I need to share that gift or I may one day surrender that gift up. I also know that newcomers may not have the ability to make that phone call before they drink.

[jimhere]

Originally Posted by Fulldresser4

Jim...respectfully, in my opinion, you are NOT God, nor do you know His time.

As I often say, I am not interested in your opinion of an experience you've never had.

No I'm not God, but the Power of God dwells in me, just as it does in you. But you have to be awake to it. The first nine steps simply clear away what is blocking me from it and I wake up to what has always been there. But if you haven't done the steps, you wouldn't understand what I am saying. God is an experience, not an idea.

As Steve has said, I am awake to it, IF I am living in the here & now. Where I AM, God is. So I do know God's time- it is right now.

People talk about God like "He's my little buddy HP that watches out for me," childish stuff like that. I am awake to something much bigger. They say that coincidences are God wanting to be anonymous. I don't think God wants to be anonymous, it wants to be expressed. In fact it needs to be expressed. Hence the Third Step Prayer: "...Take away my difficulties that I may be a witness to those I would help of Thy Power (through me) Thy Love (through my actions) and Thy Way of Life(That my life may be a demonstration of the power of God)."
Jim

Big Book references from Alcoholics Anonymous, First Edition