Singleness of Purpose

[Boleo]

Where would AA be today if Dr. Carl Jung had not been humble, honest and frank enough to tell Rowland Hazard “I’m sorry, I can’t help you. You need to seek a solution elsewhere”?

Not only would Rowland Hazard have filed to get sober but so would Ebby Thatcher and Bill Wilson. Bill W might not have found any other solution and AA probably would not have gotten started. There would be no NA, CA or any other 12 step programs for that matter.

It is every sponsors right and obligation to be this open and frank with the newcomer seeking his help. If the sponsor fails to be up front with the sponcee he is not only hurting that persons chances of finding the right solution but the sponsor is doing a disservice to AA as a whole.

Even though it is not specifically mentioned in the 1st tradition, Bill Wilson spent a great deal of time talking about “Singleness of Purpose”. Not only must “Unity” come first but AA should stick to what it knows best – real alcoholics helping other real alcoholics.
When this was AA’s only purpose it had a 50% – 75% success rate (see page Forward to 2nd Edition).

History has showed us that when the Immanuel Movement was helping alcoholics back in the 1900’s it had a great deal of success. When it attempted to branch out and help all kinds of people with all kinds of mental problems it gained a reputation for failures and fell apart.

This is what is happening today. AA is getting a reputation of having a “NEAR ZERO” success rate and is being rejected by those who look at the numbers first. I myself would not have stepped into my first AA meeting if I knew that my chances would have better elsewhere.

[nocoincidence56]

I think Dr.Jung spoke of alcoholism as a "spiritual search for wholeness" which sums it pretty well. I spent the better part of my life trying to fill that hole with everything I could find on the outside. Once I found surrender and began to try and live the steps I discovered what I needed was inside all along. Also, if you look in the Mar. 1971 Grapevine you will find a letter written by Bill W. about alcoholics and addicts in AA. See pages 40-42, "The Legacy of RECOVERY". Very well written and enlightening.

[navysteve]

When this was AA’s only purpose it had a 50% – 75% success rate (see page Forward to 2nd Edition).

That statistic comes from one group of 29 men in one group of AA. AA was different then and had to grow and adapt. That does not mean be all things to all people. But that does mean we have to be more inclusive, read AA history a little closer and you will see the talks about AA's worried about people with other problems and how foolish that was. Now, having said that, you as an individual have every right to refuse to sponsor anyone you wish

“NEAR ZERO”

Based on what???? Who?? Where and when????

Suppose, though, that we are approached by a drug addict who nevertheless has had a genuine alcoholic history. There was a time when such a person would have been rejected. Many early AAs had the almost comical notion that they were "pure alcoholics" -- guzzlers only, no other serious problems at all. When alcoholic "ex-cons" and drug users first turned up there was much pious indignation. "What will people think?" chanted the pure alcoholics. Happily, this foolishness has long since evaporated.

We read what we want. This is black and white of AA literature. Many addicts have found freedom in AA. And from the start, many pious AA's have been threatened by them. And yet AA remains. The statistics you claim are a joke. Until science can measure intent to work the program. AA is the dumping ground for DUI offenders in many states. I owe my sobriety to that fact. I got a nudge from the judge and it saved me. Thank God AA is all-inclusive.

Statistics are not an exact science my friend. These problems you speak of have been with AA from its inception

[Tazman53]

“NEAR ZERO”

LOL is this "Near Zero" rate of the folks that thoroughly followed our path? I have seen very close to a 100% success rate in my area if only those folks that thoroughly followed our path were counted.

Now if we count all of the court ordered, the folks that show up for a meeting or 2 because thier wife/husband made them, or the folks who just show up for meetings thinking AA meetings alone are what keeps folks sober, then I can see a low percentage rate.

But my experience has been a very high success rate among those folks that thoroughly followed our path.

[RufusACanal]

With all due respect, you are not the first to brooch this topic nor do I believe that you will be the last; to my chagrin, I have worked this topic to death without good result. However, this thread has the potential to be controversial and does nothing but inflame folks on both sides of this topical fence; my experience has been that this is counterproductive for both SR and AA. The message of Hope is not dependent on the success rate in AA, but rather on the quality of message we each provide to the newcomer, to each other and to ourselves as we live a New Life. Of late, there has been far too little of that positive process that allows everyone to be who and what they truly. I have been far too intolerant in my life and have paid the price of a closed mind. Let’s find the similarities that allow us to come together without the rigidity of personal expectations that only divide us.

I am sure you have best intentions; I simply see the possibility for division. Best to you.

[navysteve]

Thank you very much Rufus for your post. You put a lot of wisdom in a few words there and I respect you for it. This is one of those topics that definitely get my emotions tied up. I do apologize if I seem to be contributing to the division but I have seen this attitude of exclusion kill people who need our help. I see the ridiculous statistics being cited that come from completely unsubstantiated sources being used to place a wedge in AA. We now have us and them in the rooms. Many people wear that as a badge of honor, as if they are taking a stance against the polution entering our hallowed halls. It is ugly thinking and I sometimes have a hard time turning away from it. Just seen too many people buy into it without investigating first.

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by navysteve

I see the ridiculous statistics being cited that come from completely unsubstantiated sources...

Just seen too many people buy into it without investigating first.

Chris R. from Ingram Texas is one of the biggest names in AA convention speakers today. He gives speeches in front of thousands of AA members at a time all over the world. He also works for La Hacienda which is one the the most respected treatment centers in the world (Dr Phil even recommends them). Since he is a professional and has to answer to thousands of critics, I expect he gets his statistics from the best possible sources. He claims the BEST statistics indicate 3% to 8% of AA members stay sober.

If it were really a matter of a few "ridiculous statistics" I might buy your argument. If you were to Google "AA success rate" you would get about 707,000 hits all of which are are poor to dismal. Below are 3 typical results.

The Effectiveness of the Twelve-Step Treatment
AA And Its Success Rates—A Contemporary Brief
What is the Success Rate of Recovery in AA?

[RufusACanal]

Originally Posted by Boleo

Chris R. from Ingram Texas is one of the biggest names in AA convention speakers today. He gives speeches in front of thousands of AA members at a time all over the world. He also works for La Hacienda which is one the the most respected treatment centers in the world (Dr Phil even recommends them). Since he is a professional and has to answer to thousands of critics, I expect he gets his statistics from the best possible sources. He claims the BEST statistics indicate 3% to 8% of AA members stay sober.

If it were really a matter of a few "ridiculous statistics" I might buy your argument. If you were to Google "AA success rate" you would get about 707,000 hits all of which are are poor to dismal. Below are 3 typical results.

The Effectiveness of the Twelve-Step Treatment
AA And Its Success Rates—A Contemporary Brief
What is the Success Rate of Recovery in AA?

I understand and have read the sources you are quoting. This thread is not conducive to good recovery; it is controversial. I attempted to give you a heads up in my prior post, not stifle your freedom of speech or your recovery. We are guests of SR and as guests, it is suggested that we add to and not take away from the experience of all folks that use SR.

When I was new here, I too have weighted as you, the recovery rate, the dismal attendance at meetings and the general disregard for the Steps and the Traditions and found much lacking in AA. I soon learned that I could affect change in these areas only through my personal AA work with others outside of SR. Controversy will not go far here and that is as it should be, because SR is simply a portal to recovery.

If you choose to pursue this type of commentary you may find SR is less than appreciative. I respect your thoughts and from that respect offer this simple information so you can make an informed decision. Best to you.

Ron

[navysteve]

I personally don't buy into alot of Chris R's rhetoric. He is a circuit speaker. I don't have much use for celebrity AA's.

The first link is from Agent Orange who is often putting nonsense on the site that is regularly disproven. Although there are some valid points on the site, the success rate is still suspect at best

The second one is from Dick B. who is someone who has an agenda all his own.

Both Dick and Chris are selling a product. Controversy sells. As far as the Dr Phil endorsement. HAH!

The third I have never seen before.

[lizw]

It is true that AA does have a singleness of purpose and as we all know that is to help other alcoholics get sober and stay sober ourselves.

Our fellowship isn't failing in this singleness of purpose because we're not dealing with 'real alcoholics' it is failing because of lack of unity.

Our 1st tradition says OUR common welfare should come first. It doesn't say MY common welfare should come first but OUR. IMO this tradition asks us, as members, to put aside our differences (as Rufus pointed out) and work for the common good.

Show me an AA member who can quietly go about his/her AA business without inserting his/her own agenda (those being power,property and prestige) then you have a great example of Tradition 1.

[RufusACanal]

"Of necessity there will have to be discussion of matters medical, psychiatric, social, and religious. We are aware that these matters are, from their very nature, controversial. Nothing would please us so much as to write a book which would contain no basis for contention or argument. We shall do our utmost to achieve that ideal. Most of us sense that real tolerance of other people's shortcomings and viewpoints and a respect for their opinions are attitudes which make us more useful to others. Our very lives, as ex-problem drinkers, depend upon our constant thought of others and how we may help meet their needs."

[desertdonna]

I appreciate Dick B.'s response (Dick B. wrote "A Contemporary Brief") in reference to the third link you posted:

"I much prefer the comments on this site to the long diatribes against those of us in the trenches who can see who comes and who goes. A.A. is undergoing change. The program of today, as seen in the fellowship, is not the program of the 1930’s, as reported by Frank Amos and published in DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers. The program of today does not insist on reliance on God; yet that was the first question posed by Dr. Bob to newcomers leaving the hospital. Those who criticize the accuracy of the early 40 members records give no evidence of having looked at the rosters, the collections in the Wilson House Griffith Library, the scrapbook on sale at GSO. I belong to the A.A. of today, and I’m really glad I do. I remember the A.A. of the 1930’s and have no difficulty asking God which way to go on any particular Step, Tradition, or Big Book suggestion. Neither did Bill and Bob. There weren’t any steps, traditions, or publishing efforts. God’s strength, guidance, and rescue were sufficient for them. God Bless, Dick"

By Dick B. on 09.05.08 3:51 pm

[navysteve]

From the third link you posted:

“What are the alternatives?”


Unfortunately, there aren’t a whole lot. Yes, there are a few out there, but they are spread few and far between, and there are many disadvantages with all of them. While many of the alternatives to AA claim to have superior success rates, their method of measurement suffers from the same flaws as AA, and their is very little widespread support in these programs.

If you are on the fence about going to AA, here is what I suggest you do: Ignore the success rates you hear about and give it a chance. Do this knowing that AA is the single biggest support system of recovery in the world. The program may not be perfect, but it’s the best our planet has. The alternatives might talk a big game, but they don’t have meetings in every city in the world. AA does. You can find support just about anywhere. And it’s technically free to boot.

Here’s another suggestion: find someone in AA who has multiple years of sobriety and ask them what the success rate is for AA. They will likely tell you that they don’t care. It works for them.

So, since you posted this. Are you against the success rate nonsense?????

It seems that this sources you cite doesn't think too much about them


I thought this comment was pretty good:

The programs recovery rate is extremely higher than the fellowships recovery rateMany are in-constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves so they seek
a label (sponsor) an outside menacing force outside the Big Book and get into personalities = another persons reality instead of being true to thy self.
A.A. does not ask this it begs you to be fearless from the very start many get fear imposed on them to get a sponsor and boy do they get it.

The programs success rate is higher than the fellowship's. I will totally agree with that. Just because you go to AA meetings does not mean you are practicing the AA program. And how do you quantify who is working the program???

How do you determine who is and who isn't working the 12 steps???

I am sure that Chris R and Dick B have the best intentions but when folks start pulling out success rate numbers they are blowing smoke...

[Pinkcuda]

Originally Posted by navysteve

How do you determine who is and who isn't working the 12 steps???..

Simple, those that are dedicated to working the steps are sober and those that aren't fail.
I believe that AAs success rate is the same as it was back in the 30s. 75% of those that actually put forth a little effort stay sober. Those that expect AA to do all the work fail.
But while we're on the subject, what is the success rate of these $12,000.00 Rehabs that everyone has so much faith in. They have a dismal success rate of 5% or less but everyone seems to blow the Rehab Horn like it's some sort of fail proof sobriety machine.
I guess AA might need the luxury of salesmen like Brittney Spears and Lindsey Lohan before anybody actually believes that it works.

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by RufusACanal

I understand and have read the sources you are quoting. This thread is not conducive to good recovery; it is controversial.

It is NOT my intention to hurt AA. I simply do not want to see it make the same mistakes that fatally crippled the Emmanuel Movement in the early 20th century. They had a perfectly good recovery rate but lost it (just like AA did) when they attempted to apply their program to non-alcoholics (sound familiar?).

I am merely suggesting that we follow Dr. Jung's example and let go of the idea that we can help anyone and everyone. It may seem like good intentions to reach out to everyone but remember what the road to Hell is paved with?

AA Words of Wisdom #6:

"The idea that alcoholics, drug addicts, sex addicts, over-eaters, smokers, etc, etc, should all just go to AA meetings because a disease is a disease is a disease...was started by a treatment center that only had one van."

[navysteve]

I am merely suggesting that we follow Dr. Jung's example and let go of the idea that we can help anyone and everyone.

Who says we are trying to be all things to all people? But...

Alcoholics often have other problems, so it is only natural that they bring those problems to the meeting with them.

It is up to us to remind them what AA can and cannot do. You can stay stuck on the statistics all you want. They must provide a sense of security.

[nocoincidence56]

If you read page 142 in the 12&12 it talks of the "strange alcoholic" someone with a double stigma. Although in AA the singleness of purpose is to help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety, we should remember the time AA was born. Our meetings around here are not exclusive. If a person wants help, it is offered to them. I referenced Bill W's letter written 1968 as a way of illustrating his change in vision. He simply found that some people will get more from other therapies, be they NA, CA, etc.. Let's not forget about another human being who is in pain, desperate, hopeless, reaching out for help. Should we not lend a hand? If nothing else assist them to a place where they could get the help they need. Suppose the one we turn away, in an explosion of resentment, "goes off" and dies as a result. Do we say; it was his/her choice? Let's not forget where some of us have been in the past. How quickly we forget. I know I'm not the only one in AA with addiction to more than just alcohol. At times I would not even drink. I was one who's DOC was MORE. :ghug

[Ago]

Boleo

I see what you are saying, AA can't be all things to all people, I truly understand.

I love AA, it saved my life

I am a real alcoholic.

I have worked the steps

I got the spiritual awakening

I have sponsored over 100 men easily

I have also gone on "meds" twice for depression, and once for anxiety.

Some "old timers" told me they were just "normal feelings" and I would get used to them.

After working the steps maybe 5 times and not "getting better" and even relapsing once after 3 years, after 8-9 years I finally went to a Psychiatrist.

He put me on meds, and my life got better, I worked the steps again, and my life got better still.

I suffer from periodic depression and Alcoholism.

They "manifest" in a very similar fashion sometimes, because my "alcoholism" will try to make me so miserable that taking a drink seems like a good idea, however my "depression" makes it so I can't even get out of bed. I have had to call people to come get me in sobriety because I was unable to leave my house because of my depression.

Fellow alcoholics came and got me, and helped me see one the top "sobriety" Psychiatrists in the country and he put me on meds. He deals strictly and only with people who are "sober". Some he prescribes meds for, some he works with, mostly he gives "seminars" to other psychiatrists and therapists now for working with sober clients.

After many years of sobriety, I stopped going to meetings because I moved to an Isolated area, after a few years I got very sick...my alcoholism got the better of me. I "know" what untreated alcoholism looks like, I've had it, I've had it "In Sobriety", Fellow alcoholics came and got me when I called.

I also know what depression looks like. I have also had that "In Sobriety"

They are different.

One requires a medical solution, the other requires a spiritual solution.

I need to treat both.

The depression goes away. The alcoholism doesn't.

Ever.

I am a "real alcoholic"

I fit every description, I am the "jay walker", I am "the fellow that has been confusing you" there is not a page in the Big Book that doesn't refer to me.

The thing I'm beginning to "get" is you don't believe someone "can" be a "real alcoholic" and "something else" like:

* Some of us have had to cope with depressions that can be suicidal;
* schizophrenia that sometimes requires hospitalization;
* manic depression;
* and other mental and biological illnesses.
* Also among us are epileptics,
* members with heart trouble,
* cancer,
* allergies,
* hypertension,
* and many other serious physical conditions.


I can be a "real alcoholic" and be an epileptic

I can be a "real alcoholic" and have high blood pressure

I can be a "real alcoholic" and have other mental and biological illnesses

All of these conditions require meds

I won't sponsor someone who quit drinking but smokes pot, but I won't chase him out of the rooms either. I know many people who came on "the marijuana maintenance program" and ultimately "got sober" and worked the steps

"Doctor Addict Alcoholic" took 7 months I think to stop drinking then stop taking pills. They put his story in the Big Book, and it is far and away the most quoted story outside of the first 164 pages, and it's quoted more then most stuff IN the first 164 pages.

Acceptance.

"The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking"

If someone has an earnest desire to stop drinking (is an alcoholic) AND other issues, I will help him.

I don't sponsor addicts that aren't alcoholics, but I don't chase them away, people like them started NA, CA, OA, SLAA, the list goes on and on

off topic: Dr. Phil, last I checked, isn't an alcoholic, he's a television "personality" that would be like me going to Bill Maher for my political information, or you for my "medical information".

I think the question for you Boleo is this, do you think a "real alcoholic" can suffer from a "medical condition"?

If so, will you deny a "real alcoholic" help because of his "medical condition"?

these are all "medical conditions"

* depressions that can be suicidal;
* schizophrenia that sometimes requires hospitalization;
* manic depression;
* and other mental and biological illnesses.
* Also among us are epileptics,
* members with heart trouble,
* cancer,
* allergies,
* hypertension,
* and many other serious physical conditions.

They all require medical solutions

Why don't you "pick" the ones that you would "kick out of AA" from this line up.

Because everything there you CAN have, and still be a "real alcoholic"

I can pray till I'm blue in the face and my diabetes won't go away.

I can work the steps 187 times and my Diabetes won't go away.

I see a Doctor if I have diabetes.

I go to AA if I am an Alcoholic.

My name is Andrew and I am an Alcoholic.

You can't make me leave.

[CarolD]

Hmm...
I see a lot of opinions...asumptions ...predictions
and forcast about AA on this thread.

Interesting as all this is...

How many of you go to our Newcomers Forum
to share with those seeking a solution?

They don't give a hoot about qotes from
xyz source....or who counts what numbers

We in recovery can reach and teach
and that is what I need to remember.

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by Ago

these are all "medical conditions"

* depressions that can be suicidal;
* schizophrenia that sometimes requires hospitalization;
* manic depression;
* and other mental and biological illnesses.
* Also among us are epileptics,
* members with heart trouble,
* cancer,
* allergies,
* hypertension,
* and many other serious physical conditions.

Why don't you "pick" the ones that you would "kick out of AA" from this line up.

It is not a question of "Kick em out of AA". It is more about not giving them false hope and steering them in the wrong direction.

A good sponsor admits his/her limitations and tries to steer the sponcee in the right direction to find help.

I am the first to admit that I don't know much about depression but I do know a lot about despair (Fourth Horsemen of the Apocalypse). The same spiritual tools that I use to treat my alcoholism work surprisingly well to chase him away as well.

[Ago]

The question is do you feel a "real alcoholic" can also suffer from a medical condition?

Such as diabetes, depression or high blood pressure, which require care and in some cases medication, or do you not feel depression, or bi-polar, or anxiety are "real" medical conditions, and they are "all in your head"?

Kinda like what they used to say about alcoholism before they classified it as an illness.

A good sponsor admits his/her limitations and tries to steer the sponcee in the right direction to find help.

I am the first to admit that I don't know much about depression but I do know a lot about despair (Fourth Horsemen of the Apocalypse). The same spiritual tools that I use to treat my alcoholism work surprisingly well to chase him away as well.

that's good, but these people aren't your sponsees, and depression isn't despair, and if you don't know anything about depression why are you giving medical advice, and yes, telling people if they are on meds that AA isn't the place for them IS giving "medical advice"

I'm going to go work the steps at my diabetes now and call my plumber about this pain in my chest, I'll talk to you later.

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by Ago

that's good, but these people aren't your sponsees, and depression isn't despair, and if you don't know anything about depression why are you giving medical advice, and yes, telling people if they are on meds that AA isn't the place for them IS giving "medical advice"

If I tell someone that I can't help them and AA has proven track record of failing to help someone like them, how is that equivalent to giving them medical advice. Since it is steering them back to medicine I would describe it as the polar opposite of giving medical advice.

That's like saying the phrase "Don't ask me, see a Doctor" is some sort of medical advice because the "see a Doctor" part sounds a bit like medical advice. To a 5 year old, perhaps it would.

[Ago]

A good sponsor admits his/her limitations and tries to steer the sponcee in the right direction to find help.

If I come upon an alcoholic that needs help and I don't have the necessary experience, like say a manic depressive, or a woman, I refer them to a sponsor that does.

Telling an alcoholic that AA can't help IS "kicking them out" of AA

That's twice you haven't answered the question

The question is do you feel a "real alcoholic" can also suffer from a medical condition?

I give up and I'm walking away

I'm off to hang out with Rush Limbaugh and ask him about Sobriety...I need more "skewed data" and "talking points"

This, once again, is the AA "approved" literature, this IS the party line of the program you purport to love so much.

I guess "take what you need and leave the rest" huh Boleo?

The AA Member, Medications and other drugs.

From the AA Pamphlet

Because this subject is one which goes deeply into the field of medicine, a group of physicians who are members of A. A. were asked to help prepare this pamphlet.

The experience of some A. A. members reveals that the drug misuse can threaten the achievement and maintenance of sobriety.

Yet some A. A. members must take prescribed medication in order to treat certain serious medical problems.

Experience has shown this problem can be minimized if the following suggestions are carefully heeded:

* Remember that as a recovering alcoholic your automatic response will be to turn to chemical relief for uncomfortable feelings and to take more the than usual, prescribed amount. Look for non-chemical solutions for the aches and discomforts of everyday living.
* Remember that the best safeguard against drug related relapse is an active participation in the A. A. program of recovery.
* No A. A. Member Plays Doctor.
* Be completely honest with yourself and your physician regarding use of medication.
* If in doubt, consult a physician with demonstrated experience in the treatment of alcoholism.
* Be frank about your alcoholism with any physician or dentist you consult. Such confidence will be respected and is most helpful to the doctor.
* Inform the physician at once if you experience side effect from prescribed drugs.
* Consider consulting another doctor if a personal physician refuses or fails to recognize the peculiar susceptibility of alcoholics to sedatives, tranquilizers, and stimulants.

At the same time we recognize this dangerous tendency in re-addiction, we also recognize that alcoholics are not immune to other diseases.

* Some of us have had to cope with depressions that can be suicidal;
* schizophrenia that sometimes requires hospitalization;
* manic depression;
* and other mental and biological illnesses.
* Also among us are epileptics,
* members with heart trouble,
* cancer,
* allergies,
* hypertension,
* and many other serious physical conditions.

Because of the difficulties that many alcoholics have with drugs, some members have taken the position that no on in A. A. should take any medication. While this position has undoubtedly prevented relapses for some, it has meant disaster for others.

A. A. members and many of their physicians have described situation in which depressed patients have been told by A.A.’s to throw away the pills, only to have depression return with all its difficulties, sometimes resulting in suicide.

We have heard, too, from schizophrenics, manic depressives, epileptics and others requiring medication that well meaning A. A. friends have often discourage them from taking prescribed medication.

Unfortunately, by following layman’s advice, the sufferers find that their conditions can return with all the their previous intensity.

On top of that, they feel guilty because they are convinced that " A. A. is against pills."

It becomes clear that just as it is wrong to enable or support any alcoholic to become re-addicted to any drug, it’s equally wrong to deprive any alcoholic of medication which can alleviate or control other disabling physical and/or emotional problems….

Take care Boleo

[nocoincidence56]

It comes to mind, page 86 in the BB.....",for after all God gave us brains to use." It would be wise to be practical, even simple, help our fellow man. Try to understand, than to be understood, to love, than to be loved(12&12 pg99).
I have experienced a number of things in my addiction. I drank, used drugs, suffered suicidal depression, self-hatred, suicide attempts (like driving a 6inch kitchen knife in my stomach and missing my aorta by a millimeter). The detoxes, treatment centers, psych wards. I used for 40 years and thought I was hopeless. AA was my oasis in the desert of addiction. I found what I needed in AA. I also found good things in NA, therapy, and a set daily routine of prayer, meditation, and self-examination. It works and it should be available to anyone who wants it. If not AA then somewhere! No one should suffer. It is a miracle to find surrender and acceptance. To understand that there is a God of my understanding. From one who thought God was for idiots! I was too busy playing god myself. Recovery is for all who want it, sadly it is not for those who just need it.
It is not enough to want change, need change. The only way to change is to experience it. Do it. Lets be there for that hand which reaches out of the darkness.......


Quote: BB-Alcoholics Anonymous
First Edition

[Tarheel]

Ago,

What's a "Real Alcoholic"? What's a "Non-Real Alcoholic"?

TH