Who wants to be the head sick???

[navysteve]

I just saw a flyer for an AA group's anniversary celebration. They had a picture of a guy ( the group Guru) with a bio of his work ( books written, movie star, crap like that...). They were announcing that he was speaking at this meeting and that all should attend. I have been against flyers even announcing speakers by first name and last initial only but recognize that groups do it. I wish I would have saved the flyer so I could scan it and post it here so you could see what I am talking about. This looked like an advertisement. I then thought about what would happen if this was left lying around. This would become a breach of anonymity. It had this guys email address on it. I have heard him speak before and all I can say is eww. I was wondering if any of you ever saw this sort of thing. Am I wrong? Is this OK? I understand that we don't need to be anonymous in AA but is this too far? This looked just like an advertisement for a book signing. I haven't even seen anything this sick on the west coast( not implying that West Coast AA is sicker than it is anywhere else, but c'mon, you have more people per capita. And I have been to the Pacific Club, if AA could have a Vatican it would be there. Except I would get excomunicated because I am no fan of Clancy!)

[ananda]

Well...i don't mind the flyers that say who the speaker is..nver really thought about it much...but what you describe sounds excessive to me.

You know guru's come and go and sometimes create alot of havoc for a while. Our town got overwhelmed by a "personality" in the 90s and it caused alot of confusion and problems for the groups and for remembering our primary purpose. However eventually the groups re-grouped so to speak and we co-exist rather well today.

[kj3880]

There is a famous rock star who is pretty well-known in NA and there are advertisments when he speaks sometimes. I think that in a way it's nice to see someone who has made it clean for so many years and is doing so well in his journey. It is his choice to publicize the journey. It wouldn't be my choice, but I recognize the value that it can have to someone who might not feel that getting clean or sober is even possible. Maybe it helps them to see it can be done? This rock star in particular takes time out every tour to speak at rehab centers around the country free. I really admire that. It might be hard for someone famous to give back in any other way. One thing that worries me about is, what if their papparazzi followed them to an NA meeting and they took photographs of some people like me, to whom anonymity is at the very core of our recovery? I don't mind someone publicizing their own journey, is what I mean, but don't publicize if you are speaking at an NA meeting if you are famous outside of the community, and even then, it should be very limited, because I don't want that type of reflected limelight to shine on me.
KJ

[navysteve]

Everything you just described KJ is a reason to not publicize. I have had the pleasure of meeting, and hearing a few famous folks in recovery. I have been to meetings in New York and LA that are more of a who's who in society. I feel bad for those folks, they don't get the luxury of just being another member. And we do them a great dis-service ( IMO) of putting them up on a pedestal like that. Because if you stick around long enough ( and I really hope you do!) You will get to see what happens when one of the Celebs fall. It isn't pretty. But the fellowship will always survive. As far as publicizing even within the fellowship. Why??? That does something to the meeting that takes away from the atmosphere (IMO) when people are showing up to gaze at celebrities the meeting looses out.

[kj3880]

I know what you mean, but I would love to see this particular rock star speak. I heard he really has a great message. Maybe he could just write it in a book or give out a CD so we could all hear it without anyone publicizing? Sometimes he just stops in on the fly for a meeting alone wherever he is and sits in the back. Those are never publicized when he does that. I bet he hates it that he has people with him all the time. I know I would hate it. It's not anything I ever want to be famous for, that's for sure.

I feel kinda bad for Cindy M, who's husband is now running for pres, and she's not able to keep her problems with pills quiet at all. Of course, she was arrested for fraud in relation, so it was already no secret. But you know, it's like there's nothing else about her. That seems to be all people see when they find out you had an addiction. It's so stigmatizing. I wish I was an alcoholic instead of an addict. You can never live addiction down, it seems like. Every time they mention Cindy M, or Rush L, that's the first thing after their name now, "former prescription drug addict." Such a limited view of someone.

Where I live, we have someone who constantly makes and hands out speaker CDs from conventions and birthdays. They just have the first name and the speech date on them, so I never know exactly who the people are. I get a lot out of those CDs. I listen to them in the car, and they are a highlight of my recovery.
KJ

[Freedom1990]

Good grief, the only flyers I have ever seen we tack up on the bulletin board at our group, very plain and just a date, time, and first name, last initial of the speaker!

[CarolD]

Hmm..
Seems as tho some groups outta get back to
Traditions 6-11- and 12.

[Celebration1994]

I know for me, I would never have attended a meeting years ago where Father Martin was speaking, had it not been for the flyers alerting me to the meeting. Also a few others who have recovery of many years and a powerful message, have been advertised. I believe it is only to be decided by group conscience. I know I have a dear friend in Florida who is published in recovery and when he speaks they have flyers to let groups know when and where he is speaking. Just my experience...I really do not have an opinion on whether it is right or wrong.

[lizw]

I was at my sponsors house the other day and she was telling me how different recovery is over there, compared to here. She went to the international convention in Toranto a few years ago. As I understand 'recovery' is really common and socially acceptable over there. Entire families are 'recovering' according to my sponsor.

Over here, recovery is not that common or accepted. I'm sure a large portion of New Zealanders probably don't even know Alcoholics Anonymous is in New Zealand.

So I have never seen a flyer with a speaker's photo on it etc... and the flyers that are circulated here are within the fellowship and only contain a persons first name and intial.

But there is a group in my area that every few years gets speakers from around NZ and sometimes from around the world. About 5 years back they got an ex prime minister to speak, I think he was like 4 years sober. They asked him after he had been outted by the press. Personally I thought it was pretty poor taste, as I believed they asked him because he was the ex prime minister, so I never went.

[sugErspun]

the only flyers I have seen have been for conventions or retreats. First name, last initial - no picture or biography, and they are never posted, only 'available' (you have to pick up the retreat outline - on the inside it outlines who is speaking on what).

I think what you describe falls under promotion.

As far as him allowing it to happen (picture, email address, bio) - Our problems are of our own making. I hope he's got that part down.

[TTOSBT]

Yikes, no I have never seen anything like that in my area. But I am on the West Coast Steve, we seem pretty boring compared to our reputation as crazy Californians, lol.
We have flyers for the convention, recovery camp outs, etc. but I have never seen a flyer for a speaker.

[Jfanagle]

Blasphemy!! NO FAN OF CLANCY? Say it ain't so. In some folk's mind there is THE PACIFIC GROUP and then there are "the others." I had to quit attending as soon as they felt I was good enough to be "one of them." That old Grocho Marx adage about "not wanting to belong to any group that would have me as a member" came to mind. (This is obviously MY bias, and I am wrong more often than I am right anyway.)

There certainly are personality cults and you are correct, on the West Coast some behaviors have been honed to a fine point, or line, depending upon your perspective. Don't get me wrong, we have so many meetings and so many types of meetings to choose from that if you don't like one approach there is another waiting around the next corner. That is what makes this program for everyone who wants it.

To your point Steve, in my opinion, when one "promotes" themselves as a SOBER AND PROMINENTLY SO, member of the fellowship I believe you run the risk of presumption that your persona will be the PUBLIC persona of AA. Does any one member have the right to be the face that outsiders put on AA?

Our founders obviously had difficulty with this very concept.

11. Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we
need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and
films.

I don't think that the concept of one person "becoming" AA in other's minds was far behind the spoken idea that we are based on attraction and not on (SELF) promotion. If the "visible" alcoholic should stumble or behave like a horse's ass, then that is the brush that civilians paint all of AA with. It even seems to me that the word "humility" may have a difficult time existing with this form of self recognition.

After saying this I have to admit I got caught up in the "speakers tour" for a couple of years until I realized I was developing into a nightclub act, and not a good one to boot. As I may have said in this forum before, "I realized I needed to stop when I could hardly wait to hear what I was going to say next!!"

Good topic, plenty to think about.

Jon

[navysteve]

Don't get me wrong, we have so many meetings and so many types of meetings to choose from that if you don't like one approach there is another waiting around the next corner. That is what makes this program for everyone who wants it.

I just want to make sure that I in no way was trying to label California AA as anything as a whole. You guys have more people per square mile ( and you have many more of us!!!!) I have been to many great meetings out there. Whenever I transfer to a new area I sometimes enjoy a brief moment of celebrity. I have been told I carry a fun message. I have also gotten caught up in the AA celebrity ring ( although at a lower level than most, after all, I am just Steve!) But I have also learned that I too can pander to the crowd. Being funny when spontaneous is a great gift of sobriety, being funny because I have rehearsed in front of the rooms is just sad. It is not sharing, it is a monologue. We have a group up here that is a 1 hour speakers meeting. I was graced with an invitation to speak, when I asked if I could invite 2 other speakers to fill up the hour with me I was questioned " WHy would you want to do that? We want to hear you Steve". Flattering as that was, I had to tell them that my link to God goes off after about 20 minutes. I then start doing material. They laughed and said, Oh I am sure you carry a great message, I said, I believe I do, but only up until 20 minutes, everything after that is BS. I was not asked again

[tommyk]

11. Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we
need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and
films.

What if a celebrity becomes known for their association with NA or AA, and then they relapse?

Well, it makes it appear as thought the program doesn't work, right?

(Same with a person's picture and or last name, in my opinion we need to remain anonymous.)

[Tazman53]

The only times I have ever seen flyers mentioning speakers in my area was for events.... actually the only even we have with speakers is the Alcothon held over Christmas and then it is all local speakers and it is just their first name and last initial. When I went to our state convention the program was also only first name and last initial, no pictures and the only email address or phone number was for the AA hotline.

My take on celebs, if they want to remain anonymous I feel sorry for them because in certain areas it has to be darn hard, for those seeking additional fame.......... well that is on them and thier program, I try not to put anyon on a pedestal, they may fall and I do not want to go down with them.

[dgillz]

Navysteve,

Actually many states have more population per square mile than CA, including PA:

United States by States; and Puerto Rico - GCT-PH1-R. Population, Housing Units, Area, and Density (geographies ranked by total population): **2000

To the matter at hand though, I too believe this is promotion and not in sync with the traditions. I have heard that some speakers charge money to speak. I find that appalling if true.

[navysteve]

I try not to put anyon on a pedestal, they may fall and I do not want to go down with them.

A lesson many of us had to learn the hard way

I have heard that some speakers charge money to speak. I find that appalling if true.

I don't know how much truth is in that. I have heard it too. I do know that groups who get out of state speakers will often pay for their travel expenses. I have never been a part of a group that paid people to speak at their meetings. I agree that this would be a horrible shame and would not put it past people. We pay for speakers when we buy Joe and Charlie Tapes or any other speakers who travel around and profit off of teaching AA. I am not judging those that do, just pointing this out.

[jimhere]

Steve,

You should get your facts straight. While I don't like the idea of putting any AA member above another any more than you do, these speakers are not making a profit from AA.

These groups, conference committees, etc., merely pay the speaker's travel & lodging expenses, no one pays the speaker.

By the way, I am not a fan of Clancy either.
Jim

[Peter]

I don't know.

Were the flyers in a public place or were the just handed out around the general recovery community?

Bill W was the co founder of AA but he broke his anonymity more than any other member.

Anonymity is more than just an unrecognized face. It is about equality and humility.

[jimhere]

I like what Peter said. As a spiritual principle, anonymity means that I am just another AA member, a small part of a great whole.

Another principle involved is sacrifice. The word is rooted in "Sacred, that which is holy." In other words, the giving up of my very best. It is not a sacrifice if it's not something worth giving up. So I give up my need for prestige and recognition and work towards the good of the whole. Not easy when you have an ego like some of us do.

Speaking of egos, I believe God takes what is at hand and uses it for good. Most of the movers and shakers and people that get things done and the speakers that carry the message have real healthy egos. I gave all of me to God, the good and bad, including the ego. My ego only gets me in trouble when it becomes the master and not the servant.

And lastly, I have no idols in AA anymore. But I do have some heroes. You know what we do with idols, don't you? We put them up on a pedastel and as soon as they show any signs of humanity, we knock them down and break them.
Jim

[navysteve]

These groups, conference committees, etc., merely pay the speaker's travel & lodging expenses, no one pays the speaker.

Jim perhaps you misread my post.

I do know that groups who get out of state speakers will often pay for their travel expenses.

I did not claim that people paid people to speak. I have heard this is done in AA and simply stated that if it is it is wrong

Bill W was the co founder of AA but he broke his anonymity more than any other member.

Which is part of the lesson in why we need to watch out for big-shot-ism. Bill's personal demons serve as valuable lessons for the rest of us.

[bballdad]

my service sponsor talked to me about this once.He goes all over the place talking when asked.Seems like there are some speakers who demand more than is necessary for the job.He calls them high maintenance.He is low maintenance.The last time he went out West to talk,he sat in a airport 7 hours waiting on a flight in Minn to get him home.

around here,in the mid Atlantic area,I have not seen any flyer's like you mentioned.We usually have retreats,State Conventio0ns,Conventions,Alkathons,and Recovery Picnics or camp outs.No pictures,or bio,or ways to contact them.

Now we do run across a group every now and then where they promote it and try to steal members from other groups.I have wrote out a few inventories on those guys before.They have dwindled and even some home group members do not attend.

I had a oldtimer friend who died several yrs ago.He would not speak at the podium.I asked why.He would not tell me.I later found out he used to be a circuit speaker.After 26 yrs sober,he got to thinking he could drink again.He got drunk.They got him and he sobered up,and he stayed sober 27 yrs before he died sober.A great man,in his last years he was happy as he could be going to the local prison carrying the strong message of Sobriety.

My second sponsor used to a lot of talking up North.He told me once all he was doing was entertaining the crowd,basically.Thats why he quit.He thought he could do a better job of carrying the message while working with guys one on one.

[navysteve]

Now we do run across a group every now and then where they promote it and try to steal members from other groups.I have wrote out a few inventories on those guys before.They have dwindled and even some home group members do not attend.

These guys from this group do just that as well. They are part of the Back to Basics movement within AA.

He would not speak at the podium.

I don't do podium meetings either

[jimhere]

Hi Steve,

I obviously did misread your post, my apologies.

That being said, I have nothing against circuit speakers. At one time, I thought I wanted to be one. I did travel and speak briefly. These days I think God just wants me to stay home and pay my bills. I will speak from the podium when asked, three or four times a year, usually.

Also, I shouldn't have bashed Clancy. Although I don't like his style, he has helped many. A classic case of God using what appears to a bad thing (the ego) for good.
Jim