On a soap box last night! LOL

[Tazman53]

I was at a beginners meeting last night and when the lead asked for a topic a lady wanted to know if one was expected to say the Lords prayer? She expounded upon this by saying that someone at another meeting asked her why she did not say the Lords prayer with every one else, she told them that she did not say it because she was a Buddist and was not comfortable saying it, they replied back that she will never be able to stay sober being a Buddist and not saying the Lords prayer!

I was shocked that someone would say this, but I know that the program is in the first 164 pages and not what comes out of some AA members mouth, that was a small part of my share on this matter. After the meeting she came up and thanked me for my share, I told her that if anyone ever comes up with something like this to her again tell them to start reading the BB at the top of page 47 and aks them if what they said was program or their opinion?

Any thoughts/shares on this topic?

[justanothrdrunk]

Wow. Just, wow.

Sounds like you handled it well.

Up in St. Paul, I have yet to attend a meeting where we didn't close with the lord's prayer. I myself find this to be beyond the bounds of the program. But the group conscious seems to feel otherwise. Not that I ever brought it up publicly. But if that's how the group wants to close, then that's how the group wants to close.

I've never experienced a situation where others have questioned someone's religious beliefs as going against the program. I hope I never do.

[Tazman53]

I've never experienced a situation where others have questioned someone's religious beliefs as going against the program. I hope I never do.

Hang around long enough and I bet you will!! AA's biggest problem is also it's biggest asset......... it is full of alcoholics with opinions on everything!! LOL

[warrens]

Taz

Every meeting that I've ever been to closes with this prayer. I hold hands, do not recite it, but do say, "Amen" at the end.

For me it is less a personal affront, but out of respect for those to whom it has meaning. If I parse the words, it would be blasphemous and disrespectful for me to "go along," reciting it hollowly.

I believe in finding commonaltiy, in AA and in life. I can live with and accept, if not believe, in some of the spiritual aspects of AA. To me, these issues are not worthy of debate, as they are divisive and keep our "eyes from the prize."

Good topic. Hope it doesn't result in rants...

warren

[Fulldresser4]

I say it because I choose my Higher Power to be God. That said, the meetings in this area always close by the chairperson saying that we will say the Lord's prayer FOR THOSE WHO WISH.

[Tazman53]

Every meeting that I've ever been to closes with this prayer. I hold hands, do not recite it, but do say, "Amen" at the end.

For me it is less a personal affront, but out of respect for those to whom it has meaning. If I parse the words, it would be blasphemous and disrespectful for me to "go along," reciting it hollowly.

I believe in finding commonaltiy, in AA and in life. I can live with and accept, if not believe, in some of the spiritual aspects of AA. To me, these issues are not worthy of debate, as they are divisive and keep our "eyes from the prize."

Warrens that is very similar to one of the shares last night.

I also shared that there are a lot of people who die because they feel AA is religous, I know this is not true, but sadly some folks in AA feel that every ones religion or lack there of should line up with theirs even though that flys in the face of what the BB says.

[TTOSBT]

I hate that religion is used by this disease to keep people out there!!
I am very spiritual and I do choose to call my HP God today but I must say that sometimes the religious overtones at the meetings make me uncomfortable. Not for me but because I know that there others there for which this is uncomfortable.

[ananda]

I'm gonna try really hard here to share without getting out of sorts. This is a tough one for me.

I am a buddhist in AA. I have choosen to hold hands and I recite a meaningful sutra to myself during the prayer. I do not say amen. It is a fine line between being respectful of the forms chosen by the group and to thine own self be true. I was warned once that "when in rome do as the romans do" can get us in a whole lot of trouble.

Here they often say...shall we close in the usual mannor...and the rebel in me wants to say...can we close in an unusual manor just this once!!!!! (LOL)

I am at AA to share my expereince strenght and hope, but not to cause conflict...nor to avoid it really.

I have to say that I do find it dificult. I have had people say that I can't possibly stay sober because i am a buddhist. Right or wrong, that sort of thing was a part of my decision to quit attending AA in my prior sobriety. If asked to choose between my religion and AA...well it is a tough call as I need both to stay sober. I hope that with the help of others in AA I will never believe that it comes down to that. That there will always be thoe in AA who will encourage me to follow my spiritual/relegious path within AA and not feel the need to choose one or the other.

I could go on and on about this whole thing....but what i try to do is share one on one with people about this and to share with the newcomer who comes to AA and struggles with these things.

I'm going to try not to say more cause this topic hits so hard to my heart. But you know me....I may not be able to stay out of the frey on this one.

[navysteve]

Yikes!!!!!
Controversy in AA?????
Double Yikes!!!!!!!!!

This is an old conflict unfortunatley. I am not a christian, but do hold many christian-like beliefs ( I basically believe everything but the walking on water. raising the dead type stuff, some would call me a gnostic). I personally, do not find trouble with the Lords prayer being used but am mindful of its effect on others. I firmly believe that if AA was started in Tibet we would have Budhist overtones in our meetings. Fortunately, meetings are not the program. Those who are offended by such practices can start meetings that conform to their spiritual needs and wants. I have seen religious ignorance run people out of AA and many of the web sites that bash AA are by people who have experienced this. I have been to a few meetings where no prayers were uttered and they were just as spiritual as the meetings where the "G" word is thrown around. I went to a great Athiest meeting where they said that "we have a great way of closing. by pushing our chairs in after we get up!"
My old home group used to share its meeting space with an agnostic meeting, and the bashing was incredible. People who profess to believe in a loving God would look down at the non-believers and quote the Big Book at them and say "they just don't get it!" WHo doesn't get it?????
I am a firm believer in the 4th tradition in groups. If a group wants a certain prayer to be said, then so be it. If I am bothered I should go to a different meeting. But when people do start meetings that do not meet the orthodoxy of AA standards ( if there is such a thing) then I have a problem!

[doorknob]

Honestly, now that I think about it, this is one of the biggest reasons I don't go to as many f2f meetings as I would like to. For me, there seems to be no right choice about how to deal with that issue.

Originally Posted by TTOSBT

I hate that religion is used by this disease to keep people out there!!

Just curious, TTOS, do you mean that literally?

[TTOSBT]

Sometimes, yes.
I have known people that have been so put off by religion and the talk of God in AA that they rejected AA, did not find another support program that they were comfortable with, felt hopeless and alone, went back out and died from this disease. So yes, sometimes .

[doorknob]

I knew you meant that literally. I fall into that category (well, not dead yet, just not living well).

I just hear so many speak of the disease of alcoholism (or addiction) as if it has a will of it's own, is a 'life form', etc., and always wonder if people mean that figuratively, or if they are being literal. And since you know me, I was hoping you wouldn't get mad at me.

[stone]

Well done Taz.

they replied back that she will never be able to stay sober being a Buddist and not saying the Lords prayer!

That is terrible! The Lords Prayer aint mentioned in the BB, but "we are not allied with any particular faith, sect or denomination" sure is!

99% of meetings I have been to end with the serenity prayer which doesn't have the same Christian overtones as the Our Father, for me anyway.

[IO Storm]

Whoever told that person that rubbish is an idiot. Good grief!

I am a Christian, so I have no problem with the Lord's Prayer in closing.

Some meetings I attend close with the Serenity Prayer. Some friends of

mine practice Native American beliefs and hold out on the Lord's Prayer.

But..I have noticed one of them knocks Christians a lot in the meetings..

so it can go both ways. If she does it again, I will speak to her privately.

I love her, and do not wish to "pay back"..but it hurts and is not right.

AA is no place for religious judgement!

Of any kind.

[laurie6781]

Ok Taz.

I had to read this thread several times, rofl.

The "God" of my understanding is the Great Spirit. I didn't use to say "The Lord's Prayer" in early recovery.......................................unt il I read Emmet Foxx's "Sermon On The Mount" and in that he explains the prayer.....................................line by line...............and I realized that it was also the 'teachings' of The Great Spirit. For a long time now I have substituted the word "God" with "Great Spirt" when I say that or the Serenity Prayer.

Even with my many years of continuous sobriety, I have had people come up and tell me that they do not understand how I can be sober so long and not have accepted "God." Of course, they are referring to their "Christian God". I simply refer them to the top of page 47 in the Big Book.

Way to go Taz!!!!!!!!!

Yes, the majority of the members of AA are Christian, and yes the Big Book was developed and put into print my mostly Christians, however, they took particular care to make sure that the program could work for all

"God of YOUR understanding."

Heck that could just be the UNIVERSE, and I know of several athesists and agnostics that use "The Universe" as a power MUCH greater than themselves.

When folks express these types of comments, I have to remember that it is ONLY THEIR OPINION and I also believe that because my 'belief' is different than theirs they may feel 'threatened.' I don't know.

Me, I just keep trudging, One Day At A Time. rofl

J M H O

Love and hugs,

[navysteve]

I went to a meeting on an Indian Reservation in Oklahoma. I had the nerve to share about my resentments. An old timer there told me that once upon a time his people had a great amount of land near the eastern coast of this country. They met some white people, trusted them and ended up in Oklahoma. He then went on to tell me that thru the 12 steps he was able to deal with that resentment and was quite sure I could handle mine if I did a little foot work as well

[TTOSBT]

Originally Posted by doorknob

I knew you meant that literally. I fall into that category (well, not dead yet, just not living well).

I just hear so many speak of the disease of alcoholism (or addiction) as if it has a will of it's own, is a 'life form', etc., and always wonder if people mean that figuratively, or if they are being literal. And since you know me, I was hoping you wouldn't get mad at me.

Brat!

[gravity]

I have been a part of Christian & Ojibway (Native Canadian) teachings all of my life (I’m of mixed blood). I have my own spiritual beliefs and practices but not really specific to any religion. Our meetings are pretty balanced in this respect but we do open with the Serenity Prayer & close with the Lords Prayer.

I believe that the entire meeting from start to finish is spiritual in nature -people helping each other, sharing & expecting nothing in return. It’s okay by me if there is a 10 second prayer at the beginning and a 30 second prayer at the end.

It really is sad that some individuals will hurt others because of religious beliefs (I know it’s nothing new) and that AA’s apparent religious overtones (our local introductory pamphlet refers to God over & over) turns people away from a very valuable resource.

[lizw]

Alkies are sensitve people, in general.
Personally I have never had problem with the God stuff, prayers etc.. whatever.

The closes thing I have come to have 'issues' with the God stuff, is over the years on occasion, I go through a phase where I just can't bring myself to pray etc... Our literature talks about this.

Ignorant things are said in AA meetings everyday and put people off going to AA because of these kinds of bizzare comments.

If I have a problem with anything it is the 'Keep coming back, it works if you work at it.' This reminds me of a treatment centre jargon. A friend of mine ever time says, after the keep coming back..., 'Try not leaving, then you won't have to come back.'

[RufusACanal]

Originally Posted by TTOSBT

I hate that religion is used by this disease to keep people out there!!
I am very spiritual and I do choose to call my HP God today but I must say that sometimes the religious overtones at the meetings make me uncomfortable. Not for me but because I know that there others there for which this is uncomfortable.

I disagree, Alcoholism is not responsible for the current excuses people use to not recover; people are. The variety of excuses folks use is boggling at times, some border on the believeable. Religious overtones come from members who do not consider the feelings of those around them or feel it is duty to convert and it is your individual responsibility to decide if you can tolerate the behavior, attempt to change the behavior or change groups. If I am uncomfortable, I need to do something.1

[AW2486]

All the meetings I attend end with the lords prayer.. but it is always said before hand.. "For those who would like to join in" That gives everybody an out.

[navysteve]

but it is always said before hand.. "For those who would like to join in" That gives everybody an out.

I have watched people exercise their right to not pray with the group. They usually get chastized. Whenever, wherever I have seen that happen. The right to not pray comes at a price which may be high.

[kj3880]

Yeah, around here, AA always ends with The Lord's Prayer, but NA here always ends with the Serenity Prayer and another reading about trusting in our new friends in NA. I like that better, because even though I'm a Christian, The Lord's Prayer doesn't seem to match the "non-religious but spriritual" theme. It is a beautiful prayer, but for me, I like to say it privately, as it seems to mean more that way. I think that religion becomes so much a show when people are seen publicly praying, although I'm sure that wasn't the intention when it was set up.

It almost makes me want to not pray at the end just to show it is my option. I may try that just to let new people know that it's OK to do it. Because I'm strong enough to deal with whatever criticism comes my way as a result, but others who aren't even sober yet may not. So that might give them a way not to have to feel left out if someone else didn't pray, too.
KJ

[zendust]

I've been very fortunate. My women's group affectionately calls me their resident heathen and they know I don't recite the lord's prayer. They love and support me regardless of my Buddhist practice.

What I do find funny is how some don't take the 11th step and practice it as it is written. Prayer is NOT meditation. Meditation is a separate practice. Ask some of these BB thumpers if they meditate and you'll get answers like, "Yeah, while I'm driving". Sheesh!

[Boleo]

I know quite a few Buddhists in AA who not only are staying sober but have what I would call solid-gold recovery.