confused about the program

[Em002]

Hi I just have a question about aa. I've been in the program since July but only really involved in the program in the last 3 weeks. I see aa work for people and they do seem happy, but I don't understand the principle of the program. Alcoholism is a mental health disorder and a disease, correct? So for example if someone has another mental health disorder like depression would someone say to them in order to recover you need to: surrender to god, admit your wrongs and apologize because you being unhappy as really effected people, and look into your personality defects because there are things about your how you live that made you this way. This just all doesn't make sense to me and I just don't get how it works yet. This might be a stupid question I'm just confused. Can anyone see my point?

[CarolD]

Yes...I do see your point.

Depression is why I began AA
I was miserable and I was diagnosed with situational depression.

Have you been professionally diagnosed?

[laurenlanai25]

hi!!

I totally see what you are saying!! I came into this program for help, what i was doing in my life was not working for me anymore. I had heard of the program that worked for others so I wanted to see if it worked for me too!! The first thing I was told to do was to relate to others and not compare, just because maybe I hadn't had certain situations happen to me didnt mean that I could not relate to the feelings. Also I had to keep and open mind and not question things, as so many people in AA say "my best thinking got me here" it was annoying to hear all the time but hey it was the truth!! I had to think of the things I did while drinking that I prolly should have questioned but did not and here is a program of recovery offering a solution to drinking, why start questioning things now?? hahaha... unless I am looking for a way out? that was the only time i found myself questioning things right before my relapse!! I hope that is not the case for you!!!

[nandm]

As Carol stated AA provides great tools for what brings many to the end of their drinking; situational depression. By the time I got to AA I was awash in a sea of situational depression with no clue how to get out of it. What AA taught me were simple things like:
* If I pay my bills first then play, I actually have money to pay my bills. Novell concept for someone who played first then worried about the bills.
* How continuing to do the same thing over and over and expecting things to turn out differently was a form of insanity which needed to change.
* I can not change what others think of me or what they do to me but I can change how I respond to that.
* The only side of the street I need to worry about is my own and I need to keep that clean.
* work on the things I can change and leave the rest to God rather than worrying about it.
* I am sure there are many, many more but that is the short very abrigded version.

Ultimately, my life stopped being unmanageable. With that change my situational depression lifted. My life improved. It is because of that situational depression being lifted that I was able to figure out that I needed outside help as I have a chemical depression. Today I manage my life using the principles of AA and manage my medical issues with my doctor. As Carol stated it might be a good idea to speak to a doctor as he/she is in the best position to diagnose your depression.

Take care.

[Em002]

Thanks for the replies but I think i wasn't clear in my first post. I don't have depression I was just using that as an example. That is another mental health problem and I was just trying to say why is alcoholism treated they way it is but with other mental health problems it is not. People don't need to tell people they are sorry for what they did why they were depressed or look into their personality defects its treated as you have a disease not a problem with your way of living. DOes that make more sense?

[navysteve]

Alcoholism is a mental health disorder and a disease, correct?

The Big Book actually refers to resentments as being the thing from which stems all forms of spiritual disease. That is the only reference to Alcoholism being labeled as a disease. It is an illness. The word spiritual is important. It kinda changes the definition. The word disease in my opinion is used loosely to describe a condition. If alcoholism was strictly just a disease then science alone could cure it. It is a spiritual malady which IMO needs a spiritual solution.

[nandm]

Originally Posted by Em002

Thanks for the replies but I think i wasn't clear in my first post. I don't have depression I was just using that as an example. That is another mental health problem and I was just trying to say why is alcoholism treated they way it is but with other mental health problems it is not. People don't need to tell people they are sorry for what they did why they were depressed or look into their personality defects its treated as you have a disease not a problem with your way of living. DOes that make more sense?

Thank you. I have a better understanding of your question now. The common belief in AA is that alcoholism is a 3 part illness which includes the mind, body, and spirit. Therefore, the program of AA adresses these issues. It does not treat chemical depression, OCD, Bi-polar, or any other mental health problems. It simply addresses how to deal with alcoholism. A spiritual approach is not going to make a bi-polar illness better. A spiritual program or a program aimed at the body not the mind is not going to help cure or relieve the symptoms of a chemical depression. AA is simply about alcoholism. Yes, it does provide a positive way to live, how much more positive can a way of life be than one that is about changing our lives to become a useful to others. There is a difference between character defects; selfishness, dishonesty, greed, lust, etc.... and mental health issues such as personality disorder, depression, etc... Just as there are different ways to deal with them. The program of AA addresses the character defects but does not offer itself as a solution to mental illness because it is not. Hope that helps to answer your question.

By the way it is a good question. Thank you for asking as I needed to organize the answer in my head as I had never really given it a lot of thought.

[lizw]

Honestly, I haven't a clue as to the how, what's and why's it works. But it has for me for awhile and long may it last.

[Pinkcuda]

AA isn't about dealing with Alcoholism. It's about dealing with Sobriety. As Alcoholics our method of coping was to turn to Alcohol for the answer to whatever comes up in life that we can't deal with. We know of no other way. Mostly due to years of conditioning.
It is our primary defense.
Now we have to deal with life without Alcohol. Totally lost we turn to God and the 12 Steps.

[lisa1235]

well to me a/a and n/a are a way of life.without it i wouldnt have a life.i also suffer major depression and anxiety.i have to treat this seperately but at the same time applying the principals and traditions in my life.doing one without the other has been told to me to be useless in recovery.it is a process but what benifits me the most is having control back of my destiny.a healthy body,mind&soul.what a worthwhile way 2 live one day at a time.i hope you keep coming back!and if you think you may have depression by all means see a doctor because you have to treat both to stay clean and serene.goodluck.

[daydream]

Hi em, welcome to recovery :-)
When i was new to recovery I balked at what I saw as a "moral code" that seemed to have nothing to do with alcoholism. It took years for me to figure out why certain steps (4,5,8,9,10) were part of the program. I went to meetings to quit drinkin', not to get good. It took many years for me to finally figure out that (for me) those steps help me to find peace within myself so that I don't need a drink/drug to change the way I feel. When I am dishonest, when I cause harm to others, when I feel arrogant, when I carry resentments, these things cause me to feel ashamed, angry, alone, misunderstood, depressed, etc..... those are the feelings I used to drink and use over. Learning a better way to live through the 12 steps frees me from that emotional and spiritual bondage so that I'm happy without having to put something harmful into my body. I hope that helps you in some way :-)

[Kristina]

Science has improved the world with drugs to treat depression (measles, bipolar, meningitis, warts, etc), unfortunately it has not yet blessed us with the science to treat alcoholism.

I am not far along in my own recovery (I'll be celebrating 90 days on the 18th), but what I have learned so far in AA is that even if science someday finds away to treat the physical affliction of alcoholism that is my allergy to drinking, I need a program that helps me be a whole person rather than a dry drunk.

[bugsworth]

Hey Em...I will start by saying navysteve is correct. Bill Wilson never called alcoholism a disease. In fact he gave a speech once dispelling that myth, but most people hear what they want. Alcoholism according to aa is a "spiritual malady" requiring a "spiritual cure."
I for one don't buy into this philosophy. Alcoholism is a destructive addiction, I don't give it more power than that. I attended aa meetings for 10 months, finding little of what I wanted or needed in the rooms I stopped attending...I am still sober and do not suffer from a spiritual malady...in fact I have beaten my addiction to alcohol. Stay strong and focused...keep an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out!

[bugsworth]

YIKES....Posted in 12 step...sorry!

[stone]

In which section did you expect to find a question about the program Bugs?

[bugsworth]

Sometimes they are in alcoholism Stone...I was only on my first cup of coffee, I plead sleepy!

[Cathy31]

Originally Posted by lizw

Honestly, I haven't a clue as to the how, what's and why's it works. But it has for me for awhile and long may it last.

Me too - it works, I dunno how, but it does. I'd say - keep coming back!

Cathy31
x

[Cathy31]

Originally Posted by Kristina

... even if science someday finds away to treat the physical affliction of alcoholism that is my allergy to drinking, I need a program that helps me be a whole person rather than a dry drunk.

Brilliantly put - well done on your 90 days - keep going you're doing great!

Cathy31x

[Tommyh]

I used to feel the same way,then one day it all came together for me,and if you keep coming back and trying, it will come together for you too one day.
Ok,my life was run on "self will run riot" the book says
self will to the extreme
I was a selfish,self centered alcoholic
I drank so long,and so hard,I could not stay sober.My mental condition deteriorated so bad,I could not get along with people too good.I isolated myself.I could not function in society well at all.
I withdrew from life.
I got thrown in jail 40 or 50 times.I lost my family 3 times.I got into fights,I could not hold a steady job.
AA showed me to recover,I had to look beneath all that stuff and see the underlying causes and conditions of my drinking and failure at life.
I saw the self will run riot in ways such as resentments,fears,harms to others,and immoral sex stuff.
To recover,I had to reverse my life.I had to have a Power Greater than myself in my life.I had to change the way I lived.Make amends to others I had harmed.

I was full of guilt,remorse,anger,fear,and shame.
The 12 steps relieved that and allowed me to find inner peace,peace with others, and a relationship with a Power Greater than myself.

[Tazman53]

Em you say:

I don't understand the principle of the program

The best suggestion I can make imho is to ask one of those people you mention:

I see aa work for people and they do seem happy

to be your temporary sponsor, to fully answer your question, there is far more to it then what some people see on the surface.

Alcoholism is a mental health disorder and a disease, correct?

In the BB it is not directly called a disease even though the AMA and NIAA have said it is, keep in mind that the BB was written in 1937ish and for the most part alcoholism then was viewed as a moral/will issue. Here are a few quotes from the BB.

The Doctors Opinion:

The physician who, at our request, gave us this letter, has been kind enough to enlarge upon his views in another statement which follows. In this statement he confirms what we who have suffered alcoholic torture must believe-that the body of the alcoholic is quite as abnormal as his mind. It did not satisfy us to be told that we could not control our drinking just because we were maladjusted to life, that we were in full flight from reality, or were outright mental defectives. These things were true to some extent, in fact, to a considerable extent with some of us. But we are sure that our bodies were sickened as well. In our belief, any picture of the alcoholic which leaves out this physical factor is incomplete.

The doctor's theory that we have an allergy to alcohol interests us.

We believe, and so suggested a few years ago, that the action of alcohol on these chronic alcoholics is a manifestation of an allergy; that the phenomenon of craving is limited to this class and never occurs in the average temperate drinker. These allergic types can never safely use alcohol in any form at all;

These men were not drinking to escape; they were drinking to overcome a craving beyond their mental control.

I highly encourage you to read all of "The Doctors Opinion", at the time of its writing it shows that Dr. Silkworths take on alcoholism was years ahead of its time.

For those that do not feel that alcoholism is a three part ailment I highly encourage them to read 2 books:

"Under The Influence" & "Beyond The Influence", these 2 books are a compilation of the latest scientific and medical data on alcoholism. If after reading these 2 books an alcoholic can not see they have a problem that needs to be dealt with they are truly still in the state of denial the both of these books and the BB mention.

Oh yea one more thing, according to AA alcoholism is more then just a spiritual malady, I will quote from "Working With Others":

Continue to speak of alcoholism as an illness, a fatal malady. Talk about the conditions of body and mind which accompany it.

Always verify what others say by reading the whole book, especially when the source appears biased. Do not get me wrong, I encourage every one to validate everything some one says is in the book, is really in the book.

[justanothrdrunk]

Originally Posted by Em002

Alcoholism is a mental health disorder and a disease, correct? So for example if someone has another mental health disorder like depression would someone say to them in order to recover you need to: surrender to god, admit your wrongs and apologize because you being unhappy as really effected people, and look into your personality defects because there are things about your how you live that made you this way.

I see your point.

I think the answer to the above is, "no." Though I've heard that some out there would take that approach.

I believe alcoholism is just like any other disease. And, like other diseases, each requires a different protocol to treat.

I'm not a doctor, but from my experience, generally accepted forms of medical practice to treat depression include psychotherapy and medication.

Whereas with alcoholism, the treatment is different. They may both be mental disorders, but they require different forms of treatment as far as I know.

As to why the program of AA works for some people, I don't know the answer to that. I don't think anyone knows. I've read that the same can be said for some anti-depression medications. It is not known exactly how these medicines work.

For me, I decided that I don't need to know how or why the program of AA works for me. I just know that it works.

[Em002]

Thanks for all the replies! I do see your points but I still don't know what I want to do. I wish I knew how to quote correctly here.

For me, I decided that I don't need to know how or why the program of AA works for me. I just know that it works.

How do you have such blind faith in the program doing things you don't want to do and not even knowing it will work for you.

I did mention what I wrote to one of the people I know in aa and she said what? why are you worrying about all these others steps when on step 1 don't think about that.

I used to feel the same way,then one day it all came together for me,and if you keep coming back and trying, it will come together for you too one day.

Good to know that i'm not the only person to think this way.

It is a spiritual malady which IMO needs a spiritual solution.

I defintely don't believe that alcoholism is a spiritual malady. According to everyone in the medical community addiction is a disease. I don't feel at all that I have a spiritual problem I know I use alcohol to cope it has nothing to do with how spiritual i am in my opinion of course.

[RufusACanal]

This is a quotation from John Donne (1572-1631). It appears in Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions, Meditation XVII:

"All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated...As therefore the bell that rings to a sermon, calls not upon the preacher only, but upon the congregation to come: so this bell calls us all: but how much more me, who am brought so near the door by this sickness....No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."


Am I a man unto myself or am I part of the universe? This question rouses much controversy here at SR in AA and in the world. I have found that though I dearly desired to be a man unto myself, I failed miserably. Alcoholics Anonymous is a pathway to a new life with simple instructions on how to achieve that new life through the Power of something Greater. Alcoholism has provided the motivation for me to look more deeply at my soul and I believe that my soul was far sicker than my body ever was. Before the onset of Alcoholism, I was sick. Alcoholism exacerbated my weaknesses and compromised my strengths and in so doing, my soul became more distressed, lonely and wayward. Though I have had tremendously insane life experiences, nothing compares to the darkness of my soul during my active Alcoholism. Only a formula for recovery that touches my soul would suffice and I found in my failed attempts to recovery by myself, that I could not. I needed Two Powers. I needed the love and fellowship of those like myself who I found in the rooms of AA. I also needed the loving embrace of a Power Greater than I whom I call God. I belive that Alcoholism is a spiritual malady and you can test this for yourself. Simply inventory your soul and if you are honest you will see as I have that this is no exercise in intellectualization. God either is, or is not.