Question About The Big Book

[BackToSquareOne]

I noticed on this board and others that a lot of people quote the Big Book and refer to it like it's holy scripture. The reality is that this is just a book that was written by a couple of drunks way back in 1937. It is not divinly inspired, is not a sacred text and everything in it was written by fallible human beings, nothing is written in stone. The Big Book says that a person should drink until they're done and a lot of people will go on spouting off this nonsense without realizing how bad this advice is. Some people are never done and will drink themselves to death. Almost every city has crisis intervention teams and if they took this advice they would just let everyone kill themselves with alcohol or drugs. This attitude that everything in the Big Book is written in stone can get a little ridiculous at times.

[CarolD]

Hmm..
For a minute there I thought you wanted to fuss about
the Bible and how it was written.

Yes...both books contain directions for living.
No one has to follow either path.

[AW2486]

Whether you agree with it or not.

Just a simple fact..

The recovery rate was better in the early days than it is now. And I think those people followed the program in the book more back then, than we do today.

[nandm]

I appreciate you point of view although we don't see eye to eye on everything you have said.

Yes, the Big Book was written by a couple of drunks. The book lays out a program of principles which when applied do work to resolve alcoholism for many people. Is is laid out in stone? No, even the authors acknowledge this. In the chapter "A Vision For You" you will find this passage

Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize we know only a little..........

The authors simply wrote down what worked for them and many others. One can choose to take or leave their suggestions. If you don't believe that the program will work for you then please find one that does. Personally it works for me. Because it does I choose to delve deeper into the book to gain a better understanding of the concepts presented. Being informed rather than misinformed is IMHO a good way to live.

[Jfanagle]

ATTITUDE: behavior representative of feeling or conviction b: a disposition that is primarily grounded in affect and emotion and is expressive of opinions rather than belief.

You are correct when you say it is an ATTITUDE. By definition that precludes that it is "written in stone." I have been around the program for awhile and the Big Book is simply a guide to sober living and is based on the experiences of the FIRST 100 men and 1 woman that made up the beginnings of AA. (Not written by "two drunks"). It is these experiences that provide a "simple program" for those who want to get sober. I believe that the idea that one drinks until he or she is done, is intended to convey the idea that "until one is READY" to get sober the chances of success are minimal. As with most things in life, to use one statement or even one word to portray the intent of its authors is unfair at best.

This book or any other should be examined in it's totality in order to determine the message that the authors bring to the reader. If after reading a book you find the message lacking for your needs, then by all means find a book that more closely fits your requirements.

The oft quoted phrase from AA sums it up nicely: "AA isn't for those who need it, but rather for those that want it." It has been a nice fit for me these past 9 years.

Jon

[Rob B]

Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne

I noticed on this board and others that a lot of people quote the Big Book and refer to it like it's holy scripture. The reality is that this is just a book that was written by a couple of drunks way back in 1937. It is not divinly inspired, is not a sacred text and everything in it was written by fallible human beings, nothing is written in stone. The Big Book says that a person should drink until they're done and a lot of people will go on spouting off this nonsense without realizing how bad this advice is. Some people are never done and will drink themselves to death. Almost every city has crisis intervention teams and if they took this advice they would just let everyone kill themselves with alcohol or drugs. This attitude that everything in the Big Book is written in stone can get a little ridiculous at times.

Fine observation, here's something I notice, a lot of folks on this board like to share opinions on an experience they have never had about a program they've never worked.

AA is not the only way, it is the best way for some of us, doesn't make us better or worse. If AA does not work for you, that's cool, find something that will work for you, check out secular connections here on this site, there are people who are sober and happy and share your sentiment. Focus on finding a solution that will work for you instead of wasting energy poking shots at a program you don't like.

[BackToSquareOne]

Originally Posted by Rob B

Fine observation, here's something I notice, a lot of folks on this board like to share opinions on an experience they have never had about a program they've never worked.

AA is not the only way, it is the best way for some of us, doesn't make us better or worse. If AA does not work for you, that's cool, find something that will work for you, check out secular connections here on this site, there are people who are sober and happy and share your sentiment. Focus on finding a solution that will work for you instead of wasting energy poking shots at a program you don't like.

Fair enough but you have to agree that some people are so far gone that they require very agressive interventions. I have a female cousin who had to be involuntarily committed by the crisis intervention team and a court order or she would have drank herself to death. Quoting nonsense like someone should drink until their done would not have helped her.

[nandm]

Originally Posted by Rob B

Fine observation, here's something I notice, a lot of folks on this board like to share opinions on an experience they have never had about a program they've never worked.

AA is not the only way, it is the best way for some of us, doesn't make us better or worse. If AA does not work for you, that's cool, find something that will work for you, check out secular connections here on this site, there are people who are sober and happy and share your sentiment. Focus on finding a solution that will work for you instead of wasting energy poking shots at a program you don't like.

Rob, that is well worth the repeat. Thank you.

[navysteve]

The Big Book says that a person should drink until they're done and a lot of people will go on spouting off this nonsense without realizing how bad this advice is.

Unfortunately that is the case. Many have to drink to the point of death before they will do anything about it. And no matter who pleads, frothy emotional appeals seldom suffice. I understand that many quote the Big Book like it is Divine scripture, as was already pointed out " our book is meant to be suggestive only" That is right on page 164 of our Big Book

[jimhere]

Originally Posted by navysteve

Unfortunately that is the case. Many have to drink to the point of death before they will do anything about it. And no matter who pleads, frothy emotional appeals seldom suffice. I understand that many quote the Big Book like it is Divine scripture, as was already pointed out " our book is meant to be suggestive only" That is right on page 164 of our Big Book

That is why it is "suggested" that if a person has reservations that they should try some controlled drinking or leaving booze alone for a year.

That being said, the book is either true or it is not. You either believe it or you don't. If a person doesn't believe it to be true, that's cool, try another approach, as has been suggested. It's not supposed to be a debate.

Secular methods have not worked for me, but I don't bash them.
Jim

[BackToSquareOne]

Originally Posted by navysteve

Unfortunately that is the case. Many have to drink to the point of death before they will do anything about it. And no matter who pleads, frothy emotional appeals seldom suffice. I understand that many quote the Big Book like it is Divine scripture, as was already pointed out " our book is meant to be suggestive only" That is right on page 164 of our Big Book

I agree no amount of pleading helps with some people, they are just to far gone. In the case of my cousin if her family had not aggressivly intervened she probably would be dead today.

[gravity]

Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne

The Big Book says that a person should drink until they're done...

I am not a Big Book expert and the closest reference I could find is:

"We are like men who have lost their legs; they never grow new ones. Neither does there appear to be any kind of treatment which will make alcoholics of our kind like other men. We have tried every imaginable remedy. In some instances there has been brief recovery, followed always by a still worse relapse. Physicians who are familiar with alcoholism agree there is no such thing a making a normal drinker out of an alcoholic. Science may one day accomplish this, but it hasn't done so yet.

Despite all we can say, many who are real alcoholics are not going to believe they are in that class. By every form of self- deception and experimentation, they will try to prove themselves exceptions to the rule, therefore nonalcoholic. If anyone who is showing inability to control his drinking can do the right-about- face and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him. Heaven knows, we have tried hard enough and long enough to drink like other people!

Here are some of the methods we have tried: Drinking beer only, limiting the number of drinks, never drinking alone, never drinking in the morning, drinking only at home, never having it in the house, never drinking during business hours, drinking only at parties, switching from scotch to brandy, drinking only natural wines, agreeing to resign if ever drunk on the job, taking a trip, not taking a trip, swearing off forever (with and without a solemn oath), taking more physical exercise, reading inspirational books, going to health farms and sanitariums, accepting voluntary commitment to asylums we could increase the list ad infinitum.

We do not like to pronounce any individual as alcoholic, but you can quickly diagnose yourself, step over to the nearest barroom and try some controlled drinking. Try to drink and stop abruptly. Try it more than once. It will not take long for you to decide, if you are honest with yourself about it. It may be worth a bad case of jitters if you get a full knowledge of your condition."

I copied the preceding paragraphs for context.

This is written for individuals who don't believe that they are alcoholic, that they can control alcohol. To me this doesn't say that alcoholics "should drink until they're done."

By the way, I have never told anyone to keep drinking until they're done. I have lost family members and friends to alcoholism & addiction and I know that "done" can mean death. I also think that if someone does not believe that they are an alcoholic or just doesn't care anymore, nothing I say will stop them from drinking.


All Big Book quotes are from the First Edition of the Big Book

[ananda]

Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne

I noticed on this board and others that a lot of people quote the Big Book and refer to it like it's holy scripture. The reality is that this is just a book that was written by a couple of drunks way back in 1937. It is not divinly inspired, is not a sacred text and everything in it was written by fallible human beings, nothing is written in stone.

What I have seen is that some people believe as you have stated above and some people believe it is simply a reflection of the expereince of certain alchoholics at a certain period in time, etc. etc. etc.

Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne

The Big Book says that a person should drink until they're done and a lot of people will go on spouting off this nonsense without realizing how bad this advice is. .

I think the message from the big book can be taken out of context. I try to focus on the expereinces that a person is trying to share with me than the particular quotes or words they use to try and express it...and I also remind myself that not everyone has the same expereince and that's ok.

I practice the 12 steps, attend AA and read the big book carefully. I do not take the big book as "the truth" "set in stone". I read it as the first written attempt to document the expereince strength and hope of one group of alchoholics. It has alot to offer me today, as do the ESH of alchoholics on SR and in the AA meetings that I attend.

I post and read in all the threads at this site in order to learn of your ESH and to share mine.

[Pinkcuda]

Is it just coincidence that you said that nothing is written in stone? When I read about the stones in the book I wonder if there wasn't some sort of Divine Intervention. I really do. This is just too mysterious that it should be in there like that to the point that it can't be seen until about the 10th time through the book. Even then with help.

[BackToSquareOne]

Originally Posted by Pinkcuda

Is it just coincidence that you said that nothing is written in stone? When I read about the stones in the book I wonder if there wasn't some sort of Divine Intervention. I really do. This is just too mysterious that it should be in there like that to the point that it can't be seen until about the 10th time through the book. Even then with help.

I'm lost Pinkcuda, I don't know what you mean.

[BackToSquareOne]

After rereading this post I can see that a lot of you took it as AA bashing which was not my intent. When the Big Book was written in 1937 there was a very limited understanding of the disease process of alcoholism. Medical science has made a lot of advances in understanding alcoholism and drug addiction since then. Great advances have also been made in studying the brain and how it reacts to alcohol.

Scientists now know that alcohol affects the Gaba receptors in the brain and also affects dopamine. Under a pet scan more areas in the pleasure centers of the brain light up in an alcoholic (when given a dose of alcohol) verses a non alcoholic and that is why it is so hard for an alcoholic to stop drinking once they start. HBO had a week long special on about alcoholism and drug addiction a while ago. It was pointed out that we now know that it is not weak will, defects in moral character or any of those things that make it very hard for an alcoholic to control their drinking. When monkeys are fed alcohol and given food they will often ignore the food and drink themselves to death.

Alcoholism is now recognized as a disease process and the only cure at the present time is total abstinance. It was also pointed out that a true alcoholic would have a very hard time doing controlled drinking because of how their brains react to alcohol. The question I was raising was would you sit back if your loved one, spouse, son or daughter were drinking themselves to death and tell them to continue drinking until they were done or that maybe their problem was that they were just not done yet ? Those who post these things should think long and hard about that

[Cathy31]

Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne

After rereading this post I can see that a lot of you took it as AA bashing which was not my intent.

I'm sorry you feel misunderstood BackToSquareOne, that can often happen on the internet!

I hear what you're saying, but I guess if I think of my own situation - I really HAD to drink til I was done...for me (only based on my experience) that is as true as it is for an alcoholic in 1938 as it is now...alcoholism is the only disease where you have to self diagnose and also (worse) the only disease that tells you that you don't have it!!

That being said, I'm all for interventions, some work, same with rehab...my own experience I was done when I was done. (Thank God through God's grace this happened before I was 6 feet under)

Cathy31
x

[Tazman53]

Alcoholism is now recognized as a disease process and the only cure at the present time is total abstinance. It was also pointed out that a true alcoholic would have a very hard time doing controlled drinking because of how their brains react to alcohol.

BTSO what you said above was known in 1937 when the BB was written by the authors even though the medical community had for the most part not come to that conclusion, the 100 who helped to write the BB were years ahead of thier time in recognizing that alcoholism was a disease.

In regards to suggesting a person may need to drink a bit more, that suggestion is made to those who do not feel they are alcoholics, they still feel that they have control over thier drinking and are not alcoholics. I have never seen any one come into the rooms be told "You are not ready, you need to drink more!" The only time I could ever envision this being said would be to some one who says they want to quit drinking but refuse to accept they have no control over thier drinking.

The question I was raising was would you sit back if your loved one, spouse, son or daughter were drinking themselves to death and tell them to continue drinking until they were done or that maybe their problem was that they were just not done yet ?

My son is an alcoholic, I told his wife that for me to tell him he was an alcoholic would be a waste of time, if anything being like me he would have drank far longer then he did just to prove his father wrong. Instead I knew that he would eventually see it on his own because he knew my story and his grandfathers. He called me when he realized he was an alcoholic..... he was drunk at the time, we spoke for a few minutes then I told him to call me back the next day when he was sober. He did and has been sober ever since.

The big difference I feel between my son and I is I never knew my father as an active alcoholic, he had his last drink a week or less after I was born, I never had to live with an active alcoholic first hand in my life, except myself until I got sober and into AA. My son knew me for years as an active alcoholic and then as a recovered alcoholic. My son saw in himself what he had seen in me when I was active.

Now would I have sat back and done nothing if he had taken it further then me? No, but he was no where near where I was when I quit, if he was totally out of control with his drinking then I would have stepped in.

BTW you mentioned:

In the case of my cousin if her family had not aggressivly intervened she probably would be dead today.

How is your cousin doing? How long has your cousin been sober? I have seen one successful intervention, in the rooms, he shares that he was ready to quit when the intervention happened so he can not honestly say if it was the intervention that made the difference or just the timing of it.

I know several folks who are sober today, who had at least one if not more unsuccessful interventions, they share that when the interventions happened they were not ready to quit at the time of thier interventions, they went right back to drinking as soon as they got out of rehab, but the intervention did make a difference for them when they decided they wanted to get sober because they did know where to go for help.

I hope your cousin is one of those folks who was ready to quit when the intervention happened.

[Tommyh]

the crisis intervention team

where do you think they evolved from?

[Pinkcuda]

Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne

I'm lost Pinkcuda, I don't know what you mean.

I figured you would be. There's a message in the book referring to 3 stones. Once you can find it you'll realize there's more to this book than just a collection of words written by a couple of drunks.

[gravity]

Originally Posted by Pinkcuda

I figured you would be. There's a message in the book referring to 3 stones. Once you can find it you'll realize there's more to this book than just a collection of words written by a couple of drunks.

Well, now I'm really curious. Can I get a hint or is it something that I need to find on my own?

[justanothrdrunk]

Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne

It is not divinly inspired

I disagree.

[Pinkcuda]

I don't think it's something you'll find on your own Gravity. It's in there plain as day but it's just not that obvious. I think we all have to be shown where this is by another member. Proving the fact that AA unity is first and foremost.
Here's your Hint though. "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly folowed our path"
It starts right there on pg 58. More will be revealed later.
I can't go into too much detail because I am at work right now.
Go find "our path" on Pg. 164 and I'll get back with you later

[sugErspun]

Pinkcuda - too much! I do agree, it's in there and someone had to point it out to me. The book definitely has an undertone of 'building', erm, setting stones in place.



Backtosquareone - What was the intent of your post if it was not to criticize AA (the book)? I am not real clear on it.

But I will say this again - AA took it's name from a book. Logically - if it's not in the book, it's not AA. Maybe that is why it is so often referred to. Makes sense to me that if you are going to talk AA - the book will need to be referenced. I do agree - it is just a book - not the solution itself. Sometimes people know too much about the book and you have to take a different approach..but usually that approach is in-line with the text.

Nowhere does it say to advise someone on the brink of death to keep drinking. However it does say that if someone has reservations about having alcoholism - there is a way to quickly diagnose oneself. Start drinking and stop abruptly - more than once. The notion that one should consume enough alcohol to bring them near death is not what is being said whatsoever. There were places when I was growing up - where friends parents who drank too much went. They gave them alcohol and medication, made them deathly ill, over and over again. Some never drank again after coming back - some went right back to their routine (see Schick Shadel aversion therapy).

So - if anyone isn't convinced that they are alcoholic ( ie - on the fence about it) here is what AA proposes:

1- Try to control your drinking. Drink like a 'normal' person does.
If you are unable to do that....
2- Leave alcohol alone completely.

If you strike out on #1 and #2 - there is a solution, and it's found in that pages of that book. I am living proof.


I live near Los Angeles - a pretty big city. I have not seen any crisis intervention teams on the streets of skid row, trying to carry hope to those who may be suffering from alcoholism - people are drinking themselves to death every night down there.

But, I have seen AA members there, and they aren't talking about DSM-IV or rhesus Monkey's. Usually they are talking about their own experience with alcoholism and the recovery from it.

[RufusACanal]

"Still you may say: "But I will not have the benefit of contact with you who write this book." We cannot be sure. God will determine that, so you must remember that your real reliance is always upon Him. He will show you how to create the fellowship you crave.

Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize we know only a little. God will constantly disclose more to you and to us. Ask Him in your morning meditation what you can do each day for the man who is still sick. The answers will come, if your own house is in order. But obviously you cannot transmit something you haven't got. See to it that your relationship with Him is right, and great events will come to pass for you and countless others. This is the Great Fact for us.

Abandon yourself to God as you understand God. Admit your faults to Him and to your fellows. Clear away the wreckage of your past. Give freely of what you find and join us. We shall be with you in the Fellowship of the Spirit, and you will surely meet some of us as you trudge the Road of Happy Destiny.

May God bless you and keep you - until then."