AA Big Book and God

[scorpiogirl]

Okay guys, I have been in recovery for a very long time and still to this day, struggle with the God concept.

Anytime you mention that to someone in my meetings or bring it up in your share, some of the comments I get are, "you don't have to believe", 'God either is or He (?) isn't", "you can take it piecemeal at a time", and a variety of other comments, including being told that the Big Book doesn't promote you to believe.

I beg to differ. True, it does say you don't have to believe yet, it goes on in MANY, many places that in order to stay sober you must find a Higher Power or God. In the abc's in Chapter 5 of How it Works it clearly says, "God could or would of HE were sought". Sounds pretty definitive to me!

Now I ask you, which is it? In my early sobriety, I really struggled with it bad - cringing everytime I heard the word God. During the next several years, I calmed down about it and sometimes just acted as if. Lately (last year and half or so), I am starting to cringe again when anyone mentions giving credit to "God" and/or relying on HIM, I want to either run out of the room screaming or I want to shout sitting right in my chair. "Why do youuuu people profess that it has to be a God of your understanding? Whyyyy? The program teaches us we don't have to believe yet, it reeks everywhere!"

Can you guys help me out? Not sure what I want to hear back about so, let'er rip! I checked out the other alternative recovery programs, SMART Recovery and Rational Recovery and well, none of them seemed to fit very well and at least, AA is all over the place.

[RufusACanal]

I struggle some days with God, mostly because I am power hungry. Today, at this moment I do not. I see His results, because I look for His work rather than mine. Keeping it simple, could I have stayed sober these last five plus years via my own will? No. I am a real Alcoholic and there is no human way I could have relieved my malady, I tried for twenty six long and painful years and failed utterly. AA has never been the problem for me, God has never been the problem for me, I have been the problem for me. When I take my petty and insignificant wishes out of the picture, I can see clearly the hand of God and I believe.

If not God then who, you?

Best to you in your journey.

[Boleo]

Originally Posted by scorpiogirl

Can you guys help me out? Not sure what I want to hear

"Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another's conception of God. Our own conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to make the approach and to effect a contact with Him. (page 46)

"When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book. Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you"
(page 47)

[AW2486]

Originally Posted by scorpiogirl

"Why do youuuu people profess that it has to be a God of your understanding? Whyyyy? The program teaches us we don't have to believe yet, it reeks everywhere!"

Because that is what AA is based on.

2nd step and the chapter We Agnostics try to get us to open up to the possibility of a power greater than ourselves, because our own power is what got us hopeless and seeking help.

This goes to what Ron's point was (I hope). AA belief is the selfish human ego is what blocks us off from believing in anything that has more power than ourselves. The AA program is designed to deflate that ego to find that higher power.

AA calls that power your own conception of God. I think most people that attend AA are OK with you calling it what ever you want as long as it works for you. Just as long as the basic concept doesn't get watered down.

AA is a GOD help program. No doubt about it. And is not for everyone. I'm so glad there is other programs out there that work. Sobriety is the goal no matter how it is achieved.

[bugsworth]

It seems to me that you are having more of an issue with the lying within the program than with the concept of "God".

On one hand you are being told you don't have to believe in anything in particular...yet this "nothing" in particular needs to be powerful enough to run your life. Obvious contradiction...yet when repeatedly pointed out it is dismissed with text and verse as if it was the truth.

You are not alone feeling as you do. If aa is not religious, than aa has no business speaking of God.

[gravity]

A bit of wisdom that was passed on to me by my uncle (a spiritual Elder) is that even if I do not share someone's beliefs, I must still respect those beliefs.

I do feel a bit uncomfortable when we read the Serenity Prayer and the Lords Prayer and when I am asked to read the preamble "But there is One who has all power—that One is God. May you find Him now.” It's not that I don't believe - it's that we read and talk about a "Higher Power of my understanding" yet the meetings open & close with very specific prayers & references.

I don't make a big deal out of it. I accept that meetings are what they are. For me, there is a bigger picture - the 12 steps, my sobriety, the fellowship. I'm certainly not going to let specific references stop me from going to AA or make meetings a negative experience. Also, I believe that when we are talking about our Higher Power in the context of AA, we are talking about the same thing.



Big Book references from the 1st Edition of the Big Book

[digderidoo]

I have had massive issues with this too, so let me start by saying i know where you are coming from.

The conclusion i came too though was that you have to understand the context of the time the big book was written. In the 1930's USA, the bible and God was everywhere. Those that wrote the big book came from this kind of era.

In saying this i am not dismissing the big book or the writers. But i personally felt that if i do not like the language of the big book then i have to redefine the language.

So i had two options

1) Ignore the big book and find a different program.

or,

2) Redifine the word God as something that i feel comfortable with and work the program with this in mind.

I chose number 2, i hope this helps.

Paul

[CarolD]

As this thread specifically is about AA
I moved it over to Alcoholism 12 Step Forum.

Please do continue to share ...

[scorpiogirl]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

It seems to me that you are having more of an issue with the lying within the program than with the concept of "God".On one hand you are being told you don't have to believe in anything in particular...yet this "nothing" in particular needs to be powerful enough to run your life. Obvious contradiction...yet when repeatedly pointed out it is dismissed with text and verse as if it was the truth.
You are not alone feeling as you do. If aa is not religious, than aa has no business speaking of God.

WOW! How did you hit the proverbial nail on the head!?? That mostly being about the part about lying. I don't get mad (really) anymore and definately don't rage yet, if someone lies to me, I become sooooo enraged inside it's hard to settle it down and I want to lash out. It's like this ---> "Don't you DARE lie to meeee!!!!"
***GRRRR***
In all my years here, I have yet to determine what gets triggered up inside of me with such a vengeance when lying takes place.

.....and then being asked to believe in this "nothing" to run my life.....that had me laughing hysterically! So true, so true. I guess there are alot of contradictions in life itself, huh? Alot of things that don't make sense. I also like being reminded that "if AA is not religious, it has no business speaking about God". Now, that one kind of scares me of me cause knowing me as I do, bringing that up in a topic would not surprise me. I mean the first 164 pages says, "the main purpose of this book is to help you find a power greater than yourself". So, well then??

That is the best explanation I ever heard!!!
Thank you Bugsworth for your very insightful words

[scorpiogirl]

Originally Posted by digderidoo

I have had massive issues with this too, so let me start by saying i know where you are coming from.
The conclusion i came too though was that you have to understand the context of the time the big book was written. In the 1930's USA, the bible and God was everywhere. Those that wrote the big book came from this kind of era.
In saying this i am not dismissing the big book or the writers. But i personally felt that if i do not like the language of the big book then i have to redefine the language.
So i had two options
1) Ignore the big book and find a different program.
or,
2) Redifine the word God as something that i feel comfortable with and work the program with this in mind.
I chose number 2, i hope this helps.

Oh yes! Helps alot! Now, I can only hope that sticks with me. Even though it was written way back when in the 30's, my ears have to hear it now in the here and now. I don't go to Church cause I can't resonate with the language yet, I go to AA and have to change the words in my head so it's palatable for me. Sigh. I'll keep this in mind though. Thankyou!

[scorpiogirl]

RufusACanal - I struggle some days with God, mostly because I am power hungry. I have been the problem for me. If not God then who, you?
Thank you Rufus - VERY good for me to hear! "I have been the problem for me" - GULP - good one!

Boleo - Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you" (pg 47) Another good reminder for me. I re-read page 47 just now and it's amazing to see the things I had highlighted way back then! Thank you for the eye opener.

AW2486 - We Agnostics try to get us to open up to the possibility of a power greater than ourselves, because our own power is what got us hopeless and seeking help. I think I better re-read the Agnostics chapter.

gravity - I do feel a bit uncomfortable when we read the Serenity Prayer and the Lords Prayer and when I am asked to read the preamble "But there is One who has all power—that One is God. May you find Him now.” It's not that I don't believe - it's that we read and talk about a "Higher Power of my understanding" yet the meetings open & close with very specific prayers & references.
I don't make a big deal out of it. I accept that meetings are what they are. For me, there is a bigger picture - the 12 steps, my sobriety, the fellowship.

YES! Since I moved to a different state, they close ALL meeting with the Lord's prayer! How much more religious can you get!!? Usually, I don't even say it. I just feel the energy coming through everyone's hands. At times, this is hard for me to focus on since I can hear them speaking those Lord-like words. Just alot of contradiction that I'm going to have to get over. I mean 24 years is a very, very long time! EEEK!

Thank you everyone for your comments back. I think, no no... I KNOW.... I got more out of this tread than if I had shared this in a meeting. So much wisdom here. Good sharing guys!

[Rob B]

Why don't you look into other options, there are plenty of folks who are sober and happy without AA, it would appear AA is not to your liking. Why go if it is going to irritate you. I wonder how much you would attibute your 20 years of sobriety to AA? I am not baiting you, I am genuinely interested.

The program of AA is all about finding God-power greater than yourself,the word God as used in the Big Book is open ended but certainly has its roots based in Christianity, if this qualifies as religious so be it.

I have a relationship with God, however, I am not a practicing Christian or involved in any organized religion, so I consider it spiritual, but that's me.My book tells me to be quick to see where religious people are right, these directions have worked well for me so far, and the nice thing is it doesn't mean I have to accept all doctrine as absolute truth.

[sugErspun]

Scorpio - Why has this become such a critical issue when you are 20 years sober?

How have you stayed away from a drink for 20 years?

I don't know about this 'lying' in AA. I have found more honesty and truth in my journey there, than anywhere else in my life. But if you want to know what AA has to say about it - read the chapter "We Agnostics", also there are many threads (check the step-study section of this forum) about what higher power means to them, how they came to believe.

The subject in these forums is a bit of a loaded gun - and it looks like this thread is going that direction also. Relgion, religious, fanatics, cult etc...

We should just throw some politics in while we are at it.

I wish you the best on your journey. If you want to know my personal experience with this - you can PM me. It's not as 'out-there' as you might think, and I have never felt that I turned my life over to 'nothing' - I struggled too, but today it's very practical.

[LosingmyMisery]

The God thing bothered me, extremely, new into the program. I cringed with the many reference's to God and the first time we gathered for the Lord's Prayer, I almost bolted for the door. I found it very uncomfortable. God was foreign to me and I found no comfort in the discussion of it.

Today, I have found a God of my understanding. I never thought it possible, but it was a present surprise. Meetings gotten to the point where the references and the Lord's Prayer no longer bothered me. I had to find acceptance to get sober. I realized that if I fixated on my dislikes, I wouldn't get better. I would be driven crazy by my dislikes. I guess it was easier to accept the issues than to focus on them. That is not to say that it is not okay to question or challenge, it was easier for me. Without acceptance, I most likely wouldn't be here.

Now...years down the road. I still have no interest in structured religion. I have no interest in going to church. I do not want to be preached to or listen to or discuss scripture. These areas I still find uncomfortable and if someone engages in this type of conversation, I"m outta there.

The other day I saw an member from my home group. I tried to avoid talking with him. I'm happy where I'm at in my sobriety. I'm not toying with my sobriety, but since I'm no longer attending, I'm doomed for relapse. Maybe it is all in my head, but that is the type of thinking displayed to me when I attended.

The reason he approached me was to coach me to new meetings that had started up. They met on Sunday's and would be reading from the Bible. He referred to it as real AA and not the way our old Home Group used to do it. My question is this, when did the Blue Book become exchanged with the bible? I told him I was perfectly happy with my recovery and had not interest of coming to the group. He tried to guilt me with "needing" me and I was the "type" of woman they needed. I just don't like that feeling of entrapment. Sure, I'm happy to give back, but I don't feel that the only option is reading from the bible in the downstairs basement of a church.

It is fine if others fine comfort in the bible and if it helps them find sobriety, terrific. To me, AA isn't the bible. It is hard enough for many to except the spiritual or religious aspect of the two. Why infuse AA further with religion? I don't get it. Now, this is one's man interpretation of AA. I realize that, but I still think this is not how the program was intended. There is a fine line, indeed. I can see that, but I was willing to overlook my dislikes to get well. I don't know if I could if the bible were brought into the program so openly.

I've been wanting to share this experience, but wasn't sure where the topic would fit in. This seems a good a place as any.

[lizw]

I've heard it being described as 'God shy'. It's quite a nice description.
AA is based on the whole Christian thing and the BB does contradict, itself - but how does this actually change/affect what we in AA do or in our practical everyday lives?

It's similar to finding out the wrong time has been published on a bus timetable. Apart from ringing the company to point it out, we can't make the bus arrive faster.

My mother was a catholic and I spent a lot of my teenage years living in state family/foster homes where the pepole who ran the homes were religous fanatics. They believed the source of my emotional problems was santanic possession. Serious. They'd scream it at me when I'd skip school. I had a dream about this last night, strangely enough.

In the last few years I have come to beleive it is possible to suffer 'spiritual abuse' at the hands of another.

The god thing has never really bothered me. I do go through phases though of what I can only describe as defiance, where I just can't bring myself to pray etc... but then it passes. I think there is a reading about this in As Bill Sees It.

This maybe because I really buy into the idea that my choices are
a - live a spiritual life
b - die an alcoholic death
I've also been told only alcoholics respond to these choices by saying, can I get back to you on that one?

Maybe what I am trying to say is, does it really matter?
None of us have a 'direct line to god' but all are willing to beleive there is a power greater than ourselves and are trying to establish a relationship with that power, the best way we can.

[Dean62]

Big Book first edition pg. 19

Of necessity there will have to be discussion of matters medical, psychiatric, social, and religious. We are aware that these matters are from their very nature, controversial. Nothing would please us so much as to write a book which would contain no basis for contention or argument. We shall do our utmost to achieve that ideal.

Big Book first edition pg. 48

Many of us have been so touchy that even casual reference to spiritual things make us bristle with antagonism.

This was a recognized problem before they even wrote the big book. AA or not this is not an easy topic for many people to discuss.

[Grace2u]

For those of you who are uncomfortable with spirituality expressed in AA meetings, I may not agree with you, but I feel compassion for you. Come to think of it, many AA'ers have problems with meetings, the reasons for which are as broad as the ocean.

Some people are terrified of speaking in front of large groups; some members are not comfortable introducing themselves as alcoholics; some people are shy. Some people are loners, and just don't like "group think". Some folks get downright bored after hundreds of meetings, etc. I think just about everyone has a problem with one or another AA meeting, but we still go. We keep our eyes on the prize.

Our nation was founded upon Judeo-Christian beliefs. I can remember as a kid praying in school, and no one had a problem with it. Then things started to change in the 1970's, and that's fine. Just try to remember that in some ways, there are still leftovers from those original traditions. That's why it says, "In God We Trust" on our currency. If you found that disturbing, would you stop using it? Of course not. You use it anway, because it has a value for you.

Like the Stones said, "You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might just find, you get what you need...."

[Celebration1994]

I have a sponsee who does not believe in God. She does however believe in the AA principle, that an alcoholic can help another alcoholic stay sober. So her HP is the AA group. As far as hearing the God word...she says so what, if that strenthens some let em use it. I also have a friend who believes in the Great Spirit, and when I ask him to pray for me...he says, "smoke rising for you". Do I feel insulted or uncomfortable because of this, of course not..We are all alike, but yet we are all different, and I must not let the differences defeat my primary purpose of staying sober 1 day at a time. What works for me is respecting all to there beliefs, written or not and I take what I need and leave the rest, because....I have choices. If I take anything to the extreme I can find a way for it not to work for me, whether it be disagreeing, or taking beliefs to the extreme. Either way I can get "uncomfortable or combative" and then I lose my serenity.
Blessings
Terry

[bballdad]

I just feel the energy coming through everyone's hands.

what do you think that energy really is?

might also want to ask your self a few questions

am I trying to define or figure out God or a Higher Power or utilize it?

what is really causing you to feel this way?(it comes from inside us,not from them on the outside,remember,old ideas can result in nil results)

are you letting old ideas which did not work in your life creep back up and confuse you?

what do you really believe when you feel the most spiritual?Are you living it?

[Tazman53]

Read this quote from the BB, carefully, is there any form of religion in it?

Can one beleive in a Higher Power that they refer to as God and not be religous?

Well I do!

My Higher Power I refer to as God, is He the God of Abraham, Of Moses, of Mohammed? Is He what is sought in Buddism or the like? I do not know or care?

I did not find my Higher Power through any Religion, my HP has not led me to practice any religion.

IMHO Religions are of man.

I have my own conception of God aka HP, that works just fine for me, I have been to a church for a couple of weddings over the last 2 years, but I did not worship a thing.

When I first got sober I too cringed at the mention of the word "God", because I felt it was an impostion upon my non-religous beleifs.

I have come to learn that if I drop all prejudices and misconceptions I have about the word "God" and look up it's meaning in the dictionary I find that the word "God" is not strictly a word used in Religion.

god
One entry found.





Entry Word: god
Function: noun
Text:
1 a being having superhuman powers and control over a particular part of life or the world<in some parts of the world, people believed that the wind and the sea were gods that controlled people's fortune>— see deity 1
2 capitalized the being worshipped as the creator and ruler of the universe<give thanks to God>— see deity 2

Reading definition #1, is there one single mention of religion?

Ask your self how in the world do aethiest stay sober in AA?

When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book. Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what they mean to you. At the start, this was all we needed to commence spiritual growth, to effect our first conscious relation with God as we understood Him. Afterward, we found ourselves accepting many things which then seemed entirely out of reach. That was growth, but if we wished to grow we had to begin somewhere. So we used our own conception, however limited it was.

We needed to ask ourselves but one short question. --"Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a Power greater than myself?" As soon as a man can say that he does believe, or is willing to believe, we emphatically assure him that he is on his way. It has been repeatedly proven among us that upon this simple cornerstone a wonderfully effective spiritual structure can be built.*

There will always be those who can not drop fully their prejudices about the word "God" and insist that one has to be religous in order to find a HP of thier understanding, that is just fine, some find great sobriety in AA or in other programs. To each thier own.

Part of good sobriety I have found is to be accepting of other beliefs or non-beleif in what ever.

If the mere mention of the word God brings inner anger for you, perhaps another program may be better for you, maybe not, perhaps you can simply learn to accept that when AA speaks of a God of your own understanding it is not refering to any religion at all.

I will not dispute that much that is written in the BB is derived from Judeo-Christian teachings, but if one studies the basic tenants of all beleif systems they will see they basically all boil down to the same things as to how one should live thier lifes. This is one of the primary reasons why people from all over the world with so many varied beleifs have been able to find a Power greater then them selfs to help them over come their problems.

[Tazman53]

Like the Stones said, "You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might just find, you get what you need...."

Good quote Grace, we are all trying to find what we need.

[stone]

I use the word as a point of reference...

god=good=doing the right thing.

What we really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition.

So by doing the right thing I am keeping myself in a better spiritual condition than I otherwise would be.

Every day is a day when we must carry the vision of God’s will into all of our activities. “How can I best serve Thee--Thy will (not mine) be done"

This I see as do-able by dropping my ego, my selfishness etc. I find I instinctively know what is right and it is not the thing I would usually do (because I am hugely selfish and lazy). The part of me that instinctively knows the right thing, I could call god.

So I am using the word purely as a point of reference.

"God is good" means to me, God = good.

I can turn my will and life over to 'goodness'.

I still have trouble with the word, I am sure LOTS do!

[RufusACanal]

I too, would be interested to know more of your story; twenty years sober and having a God and honesty crisis is relevant. Lying is natural for the Alcoholic; the finest defense mechanism known to Drunks. Simply getting sober will never change dishonesty to honesty particularly since it was such a well worn tool in my old tool box. Many in our fellowship, like me purposely hold on to tools from the old tool box, because they work. How do I know? Listen in a Step meeting on the Fourth and Fifth Steps and you will soon relate to members holding on to defects that continue to work in their lives. I had to learn that the sooner I relented and gave up the defects that seemed to work, the closer I moved to something greater. How could I ever know something greater if I keep the vale between us intact by continuing to use the old tools, tactics and behaviors?

Today, this morning, right now, living a New Life in the hand of something greater means I truly want to acknowledge my entire being, strengths and weakness, rights and wrongs, good and bad. I am not greater today, but I have seen something greater in the lives of others and in my own transformation. This greater is enough to propel me on, gives me confidence and keeps me safe. It is enough, today.

[stone]

And yes it is a contradiction for the BB to talk about finding 'your own conception' and then to go on using the word God in a clearly Christian way. I don't think Christian prayers should be used in meetings either.

I just don't get hung up on it, I am just over a week sober and desperate to stay that way. I am trying to live the program for the first time so I can't allow myself to get hung up on that stuff.

[Dean62]

Originally Posted by Tazman53

I will not dispute that much that is written in the BB is derived from Judeo-Christian teachings, but if one studies the basic tenants of all beleif systems they will see they basically all boil down to the same things as to how one should live thier lifes. This is one of the primary reasons why people from all over the world with so many varied beleifs have been able to find a Power greater then them selfs to help them over come their problems.

You nailed it Taz. We don't have to belong to a particular religion to accept these basic tenants. This is exactly what allows people to work the 12 steps and be or not be a member of a religion.

Originally Posted by stone

I just don't get hung up on it, I am just over a week sober and desperate to stay that way. I am trying to live the program for the first time so I can't allow myself to get hung up on that stuff.

Thank you Stone. Putting recovery first is what it all comes down to. There is no point in any of this if we continue to drink.