Being brutally honest with other alcoholics?

[gravity]

Saturday night’s AA meeting discussion was about the 5th step. We read from the big book and then each person shared about their own 5th step experience. Two of the members were older guys with 25+ years of sobriety and, in my opinion, represent the backbone of our local program.

One of these guys talked about the soft and gentle approach. Back when he first joined, about 10 of them used to sit around a local coffee shop for hours after meetings and do their 5th step. Men & women who were not afraid to “rip each other a new one” if they would not acknowledge their own part in their resentments and their character defects. If someone was getting out of line, calling him or her on it, point blank – nothing soft about it. Each and every one of them is sober today, not one relapse.

The oldtimer finished by saying that if you want to know what soft & gentle gets you, go look in the cemetery up the hill. This is reality, not just a saying, as he has lived in this community most of his life. Also, this gentleman is not an old, cranky, “well, back in my day” type of guy. He is a strong, kind, sincere man that would do anything to help another alcoholic.

I also went to a meeting Saturday afternoon. A man in his 30’s relapsed after 4 years of sobriety. Everyone was very kind to him and applauded him for coming back to AA. Lots of hugs.

I had coffee with this guy a couple of times a few months ago. He seemed to get off on telling me his drinking stories and joked that he should be able to drink until he was 40 like everyone else in AA. I didn’t say anything to him despite the obvious red flags. I didn’t want the conflict. I didn’t want to hurt his feelings. I am so concerned about "taking someone else’s inventory", especially someone with more sobriety than me, that I didn't say anything at all. I just smiled and stopped going for coffee with him – didn’t want my sobriety tainted.

Others felt that he was getting a bit cocky at meetings but did anyone call him on it? I know that nobody forced him to take that first drink but at the same time maybe things could have been different.

I know that these are specific instances and not representative of AA as a whole but perhaps it is better to be brutally honest with an alcoholic and not worry about hurting his feelings? Easier said than done but something I really have to consider as I carry out my responsibilities to other alcoholics.

Are alcoholics really any different today than they were 25 years ago?

[jimhere]

Truth without love is cruelty and confrontation without a real answer is brutality.

I see no conflict in being kind and in telling the truth.

I am also very grateful for those that are not afraid to take an unpopular position in AA and tell the truth.

My first sponsor had a way of being direct, and yes it stung it at times, but it never felt like he was being deliberately cruel to me. Most the time the things that stung the most were his replies to some of my questions.

I also think of a man who was probably the first man I ever really listened to in AA. Sid passed away February of this year. Sid was gruff on the outside, but big-hearted. He was direct, blunt, and no bullshit. You either loved Sid or you hated him.

I spent years playing the revolving door game-in and out of meetings, never more than sixty days. Well meaning people would pat me on my back and tell me to keep coming back and give me slogans and cliches, but no real answer. They were "Loving me until I could love myself." I don't know about you all, but I about loved me to death, and some of those well-meaning people in AA about loved me to death too.

The day after my last drunk I stumbled into a noon meeting and Sid was there. When they asked for newcomers I said that I was back. Right in front of the whole meeting and across the table, he looked me in the eye and said "I have been watching you for the last five years, and if you don't get your head out of your ass you are going to die a slow, miserable alcoholic death!" I HEARD him.

Maybe Sid pissed me off so much that I stayed sober at him, I don't know. But I know that I went to his home group every year on his AA birthday and thanked him. There were over three hundred people at his memorial, there to thank him for his courage and honesty.
Jim

[Dean62]

Great topic Gravity.

I think there is room for both. I know there were/are times I need to feel the love.

but

I want the truth. I am seeking the truth for a reason. Anyone who gets upset over the truth of this disease is in trouble. I was going on about how bad I was craving and how hard it was (poor pity me) for me to stay sober. How courageous I was valiantly fighting off those cravings, triggers, slippery slopes all by my self!!! I was amazing myself at my incredible ability to endure such devastating pain and misery!!

Then my sponsor said, "Maybe your not ready to stop drinking Larry".

Ouch.



So much for my self inflicted alcoholic drama. I have loved hearing the truth ever since then Don. Only had one more big craving after that and then my sponsor told me "I don't even entertain the idea". So I don't. As much as I miss the drama the desire to drink isn't there anymore.

I love what the big book says about it.

Big book first edition Doctors opinion.

Frothy emotional appeal seldom suffices.

Like I said I do think that stuff has its place but this is my life we are talking about. I'll take mine straight up thank you.

[bballdad]

I had this AA guy,Jim C tell me the blunt,direct things when I was first sober.Thats what it took to cut thru the hard shell of self will to get thru to me

after I cooled off,I always realized he was right...he loved me enough to tell me the truth and not be concerned if I liked him or not.He wanted me to live

[Signal30]

An alcoholic with a sick brain can easily come to the assumption that the person "being brutally honest" with them is being "mean". But quite often the "brutal honest/meanness", are simply words that the sick alcoholic doesent want to hear.

There is a difference between being straight up with someone, and just simply being a a$$hole.

The program of AA is a program that will only work if the alcoholic is willing and ready. If that person wants to live a physical, emotional, and spiritually sober life than they are going to have to listen, be honest, and trust in their Higher Power, and others.

The ones doing half measures, (aka half a$$ing the steps), and not taking the program seriously are the ones that are wasting the time of the AA'ers who are trying to do their best of carrying the message.

The Big Book clearly states that it is better to use your time helping others that want to be helped.


Tom

[lizw]

Great topic. I went to a speaker meeting on Saturday night and one of the speakers talked about this - he's been sober since the late 1970's or early 80's.

This is what he said. "When I got sober no one was into that fancy lovey dovey stuff. It was don't drink and come to meetings. We don't care how you're feeling, we just want to know what you've been doing.."

He said they were hard line.

More recently he went took an emotional hammering, got a new sponsor (as his last one has been physicaly ill for a long time, so he rarely sees him) and he has started working the steps again with, what he calls ' a new age type fella'.

These days when I hear a person talk about brutal truth, I tend to run 100 miles in the other direction. I'm great at pointing out other peoples truth, not so flash at seeing my own. The word motives springs to mind.

My sponsors have always told me what I consider to be the truth. Sometimes it has hurt and I've thought I'm NEVER talking to you again. I've had the latest one for 5 years now tho, so I think I may be getting better at accepting what she says.

I believe I'm honest with people I sponsor but not in a hurtful way. After listening to someone rave, I might say well that's the biggest load of BS I ever heard!! Or have you ever thought that "fill in the blank". Tact goes along way eh?

Best response I think I can give to an AA member who is still drinking or keeps relapsing but has a ton of excuses why they are doing this (as we do) is "When are you going to accept the only reason you are drinking is because you're an alcoholic? And you don't know what else to do or don't want to do what you know you should."

I think honesty with another person starts with honesty with one self.

[Signal30]

I know of a few "seasoned" members of AA, and their sponsee's can be looked at role models. The brutally honest AAer's have sponsee's that went from homeless to PHD holding family men and women.

The walking dead transformed into walking miracles. I give credit to my sponsor, fellow members, God, and the program for getting me where I am today.

That occasional kick in the a$$ saved my life.


Tom

[Peter]

Honesty is a requirement. Brutality isn't.

[laurie6781]

Hugh D, who I got as 2nd sponsor when I got his wife Bev D as my sponsor, lol would always say:

"If we baby you, we bury you."

That being said, I never saw him or heard of him being 'mean.' Honest, with solutions, yes, mean no.

Many is the time that one or the other of them or others in the program YANKED MY COVERS when they saw me heading down a wrong path. Did I resent it at the time? Maybe a bit..........................but I also knew that these folks had lots and lots of sobriety and they were all "living it out there" and not just in meetings, and I WANTED what they had so I listened.

I found that once I started to 'sponsor' others and '12 step' others I did it the only way I knew how.................................the way my sponsors did it. I see my sponsees doing it the only way they know how, the way I sponsor them.

I love what I learned in Alanon:

"Say what you mean, mean what you say, but DON'T say it meanly." Works great for me and others, lol

J M H O

Love and hugs,

[Signal30]

I suppose I may have to re post a part of my previous post...

Originally Posted by Signal30

An alcoholic with a sick brain can easily come to the assumption that the person "being brutally honest" with them is being "mean". But quite often the "brutal honest/meanness", are simply words that the sick alcoholic doesent want to hear.

The brutality of someones suggestions, depends on how the listener perceives it. In other words, whether the comment is brutal is a mere matter of opinion. The chronic relapser drowns in a sea of frustration. Any suggestion that person hears they can consider negative.

How many sick alcoholics liked change when new to the program?

How is simply ignoring a persons lack of effort in AA helping them?

Simply saying (and these are very vague examples mind you)...

"You are not doing this, you are not doing that, you are not making soberiety your number one priority, and because of this you are failing."

"If you want to be sober you have to let go of doing things your way, because your way is obviously not working, otherwise you wouldn't be here."

"Making excuses is not hurting anyone but yourself."

"Who exactly are you trying to convince? Me or yourself?"


There are of course endless examples of comments that can be made that can raise a debate if they are "mean" or not.

Would you of considered any of the above comments "brutal" when you were new to AA?


Tom

[jimhere]

Me, at a meeting back in my chronic relapse days. I was coming back after being out and the secretary asked for newcomers: "I'm Jim and I'm an alcoholic and I'm back."
Old-timer sitting behind me leans forward and whispers: "When were you ever here?"

Me: "Why do feel like I am on the outside looking in?"
My sponsor: "Because you are."

Me: "Why do I feel guilty?"
My sponsor: "Because you have been doing things that would cause you to feel guilty."

Me: "When will I get happy?"
My sponsor: "Never! You can't get happy. Happiness is a by-product of a giving life."

Me: "I feel bad about myself. I need self-esteem."
My sponsor: "Anyone who treats people the way you have should feel bad. If you want
to feel good about yourself, live esteemably."

[ananda]

I guess all I really know is that if you yell loudly I rarely hear you, if you speak the truth softly I usually can hear. If you tell me what you think in front of a group of people...I am likely to shut down and miss your message. If you speak with me privately, I can be more receptive and less defensive.

There are those who seem to only hear the harsh...it just isn't me.

What I try to live by is 1. is it the truth, and 2. is it helpful?

[lizw]

Originally Posted by jimhere

Me, at a meeting back in my chronic relapse days. I was coming back after being out and the secretary asked for newcomers: "I'm Jim and I'm an alcoholic and I'm back."
Old-timer sitting behind me leans forward and whispers: "When were you ever here?"

Me: "Why do feel like I am on the outside looking in?"
My sponsor: "Because you are."

Me: "Why do I feel guilty?"
My sponsor: "Because you have been doing things that would cause you to feel guilty."

Me: "When will I get happy?"
My sponsor: "Never! You can't get happy. Happiness is a by-product of a giving life."

Me: "I feel bad about myself. I need self-esteem."
My sponsor: "Anyone who treats people the way you have should feel bad. If you want to feel good about yourself, live esteemably."

Some of these got me laughing out loud.

In the time I've been sober, I have seen older members say things to newer members that have been uncalled for and a direct reflection of putting another down to make themselves feel better. Or have done these things to embarrass or humilate the newcomer or newer member, in front of other members.

Truth be told, I've probably done it myself at times too but to justify it and call it the 'brutal honesty' the BB discusses, is just a side step of ones own inventory.

Maybe brutal honesty starts with 'right time, right place' situation. Motives, motives, motives.

I'm reminder also of that speaker Johnny H who says everyone at an AA meeting, when he was new, told him he was a 'miracle'. He was a 'miracle' because he was sober.

So on the way home with his sponsor, he tells his sponsor how everyone in the meeting told him he was 'miracle'.
Sponsor says, "You're not a miracle, AA's the miracle - you're just a part of it....."

[AW2486]

I learn a lot from strong members of AA that sponsor a lot of people. To watch them push the buttons that need to be pushed with their sponsee's. Some need it the hard way .. Some need it the soft way. They always seem to know what works. Being truthful and honest is the key, how one goes about it should depend on the person that is receiving the message.

[lizw]

Originally Posted by AW2486

Being truthful and honest is the key, how one goes about it should depend on the person that is receiving the message.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[barb dwyer]

This is a fabulous thread!

"the truth will set you free ... but first it's gonna really **** you off."

Good shares!

I loved this paragraph in particular:

I had coffee with this guy a couple of times a few months ago. He seemed to get off on telling me his drinking stories and joked that he should be able to drink until he was 40 like everyone else in AA. I didn’t say anything to him despite the obvious red flags. I didn’t want the conflict. I didn’t want to hurt his feelings. I am so concerned about "taking someone else’s inventory", especially someone with more sobriety than me, that I didn't say anything at all. I just smiled and stopped going for coffee with him – didn’t want my sobriety tainted.

You've probably heard it a thousand times (so far)
"relapse starts long before we take that first drink"
What I read in this paragraph ... is a really vivid example of that.

And -
What *I* gleaned from it -
you've been given a wonderful learning opportunity in this whole thing.

You got to see, first hand ...
a pre-relapse unfold right across the table from you.
You didn't say anything *that* time,
and he didnt die.
This time.
Luck knee - deep all the way around, looks like.

NOW you've learned ...

Because the truth is -
we only get the one chance to do anything.
and we only get the one chance to do nothing.

Everything we do ...
could be the LAST thing we do.

Next time you get that 'vibe'
you're gonna know what you're looking at.
And whether anyone ELSE says anything to the person ...
YOU will know what you are being guided to do.

Who knows if anyone pulled the guy aside and said
"hey is that your head in your butt,
or do you just look fat in those pants?"
*shrug*
we don't know.

I had the gift of bartending to hone my skills in being heard.
I can be nice.
Or I can be heard.
Being heard has nothing do to with raising one's voice.

It has everything to do with raising one's awareness.

*I* make the choice of the battle, though.
And every bit of it is completely dependent upon
my own spiritual condition at the time.

Anyway - that's how I saw it.

[gravity]

Last December, a few hours after I sobered up I called the local AA hotline and was invited to a member’s home for coffee - sick, shaking, full of self-hatred, self-pity, & fear. I spoke with this man for a couple of hours, told him my story. At one point, I said “The only reason I still have a wife & a job is because I am a really nice guy.” He glared at me and responded “Well, I don’t think you are a very nice guy.” My introduction to AA.

I can’t recall ever being told this in my life. “My cold wife, my stressful job – poor me.” Always got me what I wanted in the past – a shoulder to cry on and someone to get drunk with.

Hurt like hell but did wonders towards cutting me down to size. I really believed that I was this loving, hard-working misunderstood person.

This man has been my sponsor since that day.

I also had an older lady tell me that I should stop being so proud of myself and be grateful for once. Took me a while to get that one .

I guess one of my problems is that I have been reading too much into some of the slogans that may not always apply. “Don’t take anyone else’s inventory.” “Clean my side of the street first.” That may take a while and it doesn’t mean that I can’t be helpful to others. I have spent way too many years mainly concerned with my own needs.

I care about other alcoholics (had to do a bit of praying to get to that point for a few of them ). And sometimes you do only get one chance to do something, a gut feeling, does this guy really know what he is saying? Should I give him a jolt? Depends, I suppose but I do agree that my own spiritual condition is the key to making the right call. Personally, I know that I need my ass kicked every now and then.

[jimhere]

Well, I don't know about the ass-kicking part. People that ask me for sponsorship sometimes say that they need a guy like me to kick their ass. I always say that if they are like me, they'll do a far better job of kicking their own ass than I ever will. And good 'ol Mr. Whiskey will do a better job than either of us.

What I do need are true spiritual friends, friends that I give spiritual license to tell me the truth and pose considerations for me to take into prayer. It's called Steel On Steel, from the book of Proverbs "As Iron Sharpens Iron, So One Man Sharpens Another."

As for taking other people's inventory, I do that. Listen in a meeting, people will reveal where they are at by what they say. I was at meeting tonight listening to a guy who goes out drinking about every nine months or so. Gets to the 9th Step, stops, and gets drunk. Comes back, gets a different sponsor, does a little step work, talks a good game, then drinks. He was talking about an amends he won't make because he fears losing his job or even doing jail time. He has lost connection between Step One and Step Nine. After the meeting I wrote a prayer on a piece of paper and gave it to him. The prayer was given to me by a friend. It says "Dear God, Please show me if these unfinished amends have anything to do with me drinking again. Amen" I said "Don't say this prayer if you don't want to know, because it will mess with you," gave him the prayer, and walked off. I'll be that he's not sleeping too well right now.

The point I am making is that everyone else in that group commends him on how well he is doing when the fact of the matter is he is not doing well. He will drink again, and if his pattern holds true, it won't be too long either. Last time he ended up in the psych ward after attempting suicide.

I could not, in all good conscience walk away from that meeting without giving that man that prayer. They truly will love that guy to death in that group.
Jim

[CarolD]

I find it's best to have a personal conversation
with people in private. In or out of AA.