Another great AA debate - Personal Honesty

[lizw]

What's your opinion on honesty?
Do you think each of us has a different level of honesty?
Or should/do we all adheed to one type to stay sober?

Do you park in paid parking and don't pay? Even if it is just for 5 mins?
Do you pay taxes on ALL those cash jobs?
Would you lie to an insurance company?

I had a sponsor once who said, "We all have different levels of honesty and we have to find the one we feel comfortable living with."

Then on the other hand I've heard an AA old timer say, 'You can do anything you want to in AA, as long as you don't drink and are willing to take responsibilty for your actions."

What do YOU think?
And there is no 'right or wrong' just your ESH (Expereince, Strength and Hope).

[lizw]

Originally Posted by lizw

Do you park in paid parking and don't pay? Even if it is just for 5 mins?
Do you pay taxes on ALL those cash jobs?
Would you lie to an insurance company?

On the parking - yep I'm known to park @ park and pay and not pay on occasion, and sometimes it's to go to meetings. Lol. As a result I have had my car towed and many parking tickets, latest one was $40 maybe 2 months ago.

No tax on cash jobs - have done at different times.

Lying to an insurance company? No. Yet. However if a lie stood between say my daughter needing an operation and the insurance company not paying, I'd lie.

And (here's another) do I pay my bills on time? I try too.

[debs4321]

I do my best to stay as honest as I can.

That some BIG WORDS eh?

Like for instance...........

I do not lie on my job applications....I use to do that alot while drinking.

I do not lie to the insurance companies........really dont have any reasons, they know everything anyway.

I do not lie to my S/O..............we have a very open relationship and I respect him.

I do not lie to my friends.............if they ask something that I feel I would need to keep from them, then I simply tell them that it is none of their business. And leave it at that.

Would I lie if my life depended upon it. I dont know. Have not had an experience in that situation.

Thanks for the topic.............it got me thinking about how honest I truely am.

[debs4321]

Oh yeah.............I have been known to lie to myself. Let me tell you.......got me no where but in the dark.

[sailorjohn]

Originally Posted by lizw

What's your opinion on honesty?

Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.
Buddha

Like someone else mentioned, I think the biggest problem we have is being honest with ourselves.

[jimhere]

I think somewhere the idea of "practicing these principles in all of our affairs" is mentioned. I also believe that grasping and devolping a way of life that demands rigorous honesty is mentioned as well.

Big Book references from Alcoholics Anonymous, First Edition

[tommyk]

"No... I don't think you look fat at all..."

Yes, I guess I lie sometimes.

[ananda]

I have to ask...is it the truth AND is it helpful.

As others said, lying to myself is the worst I like the "to thine own self be true, and it follows as the night the day you cannot then be false to any man"

From my expereince I would say there are easier and harder ways to stay sober and the honesty plays a part in that.

My experience is that it is not helpful to me when others come all the way across the room to tell me thier truth...So I try real hard to not do that and then end up doing it more than I like to admit.

integrity is a very dificult thing for me to practice.

[lizw]

Has anyone heard that lady speaker from Australia, Dianne or Dianna, who came to AA through a group of sober AA members, who use to travel from bar to bar in the Australian outback and jimmy the cig machines/gambling machines. It was how they made a living.... Pretty funny.

[NoelleR]

Originally Posted by jimhere

I think somewhere the idea of "practicing these principles in all of our affairs" is mentioned. I also believe that grasping and devolping a way of life that demands rigorous honesty is mentioned as well.

Big Book references from Alcoholics Anonymous, First Edition

Yup, I practice these principles in all my affairs (I used to love that line....I asked my sponsor, at the time, "So, we get to have affairs?" ...lol... sorry, I couldn't help myself....the devil made me do it....). Yes, I do this to the best of my ability.....but then 'these principles' can often be seen as subjective.....just like...........:

'Rigorous honesty' ---- my definition for honesty may be totally different from soneone elses.....doesn't make mine wrong and theirs right, or vice versa. What my sponsor told me was that I needed a level of honesty that would keep me from picking up (and apply it rigorously). I liked that.....simple, just like moi........... (o:


NoelleR

[Tazman53]

Honesty!!!!! To me the biggest key to my getting and staying sober.

I am brutally honest with myself.

I am honest with others to a fault, I will bend over backwards in most cases not to tell a truth that may hurt some one, there are exceptions, but only when that truth may be something that will benefit them.

Now I will confess when asked "Does this dress make me look fat?" that unless it REALLY does I respond in a manner that results in me surviving the moment!! LOL Other questions that fall into the same catagorie are ones like:

Do you like my hair?
Do you like my shoes?
etc.!

[bballdad]

If I sincerely practice steps 10-12 long enough,the dishonesty takes care of itself...simply put,it just don`t work anymore.It`s a growing in honesty life for me

[Music]

My first sponsor told me that "honesty without love is cruelty." In dealing with others, I try to be loving and yet direct and to the point.

"How It Works" says that I need to be rigorously honest with myself. I can only be as honest as I can be right now but I've found that being honest about myself is a source of freedom of conscience which in turn, gives me peace and serenity. So, I do what it takes.

[nandm]

I used to believe that rigorous honesty was if asked a direct question I needed to answer with all honesty. If not then my personal life was no one elses business. That belief put me in a situation of being fired because my new boss did not approve of my personal lifestyle. Now rigorous honesty is complete honesty with myself and honesty with others but knowing I do not have to share personal information with people who have no business knowing my personal life. For me that is the only time honesty becomes a question.

[nandm]

Since I realize that although I work the program to the best of my ability that does not mean I do it right and by no means perfectly, so I thought I would throw in what the Big Book actually says about rigorous honesty. Although it does also refer to self honest and an honest desire I will stick to rigorous honesty here to keep it as simple as possible.


a manner of living which demands

(from How it Works)
There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty.

The unfortunate people referred to here are us. These are clear warnings that unless we can find the willingness to give this program an honest try we will not recover.
We grasp this program as the drowning grasp a life preserver. We develop this way of life by practicing the 12 Steps in all areas of our lives.

we send then an honest letter

(from Into Action)
There may be wrongs we can never fully right. We don't worry about them if we can honestly say to ourselves that we would right them if we could. Some people can not be seen----we send them an honest letter.

our solution demands rigorous honesty

(from To Employers)
In this connection, can you remain undisturbed if the man proceeds to tell you shocking things? He may, for example, reveal that he has padded his expense account, or that he has planned to take your best customers away from you. In fact, he may say almost anything if he has accepted our solution, which, as you know, demands rigorous honest.

must be honest if we are to live at all

(from To Employers)
Your man may be trusted. Long experience with alcoholic excuses naturally arouses suspicion. When his wife next calls saying he is sick, you might jump to the conclusion that he is drunk. If he is, and is still trying to recover, he will tell you about it, even if it means the loss of his job. For he knows he must be honest if he would live at all.

[NoelleR]

"...(from How it Works)
There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty..."

"...The unfortunate people referred to here are us..." --- HUH! I don't think so. Don't include me in that group. I believe the 'unfortunate people' referred to here in this sentence are the ones spoken of earlier in the paragraph: folks who have not "...thoroughly followed our path..." "...those who do NOT recover..." "...people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves..."

"...These are clear warnings that unless we can find the willingness to give this program an honest try we will not recover..." --- as I copied above, I don't believe they're saying to give the program an honest try, but to BE HONEST with yourself.....Yes, I need to give the pgm that good ole college try, but I need to BE HONEST with myself...: in my acceptance of my alcoholism and my unmanageable life; in my coming to believe in an HP; in my decision to turn it over; in my moral inventory; in my admissions (in defining, from my list of defects) of the nature....etc., etc., etc.

Rarely have we seen a person fail..." and I have not failed; I have been rigorously honest with myself in the working of this program, and I have recovered....wooooohooooo


NoelleR

P.S. For definitions of words such as 'rigorous' and 'honesty' I believe in using the other book that my sponsor strongly suggested I keep next to my BB ---- the Dictionary.

[nandm]

To each his own opinion and some people will argue just to argue.

[vegibean]

I think this is a great topic..........one of the reasons why my step four was short is I've always been concious of what is right and wrong. My dad was a very honorable man and being truthful in our home was a must so I have always been like that..........HOWEVER!!!!!!!!!! Self honesty???? Whoa Nelly!!!!! This past year I had to look at some behaviors that I didn't really see what I was doing and I had to take a look at that and do something about it.

Here I am, I don't like my mom and I had to look at the fact that I was doing the same things to my boys and I was ashamed of myself. Not to mention that those that have been close to me, I know I really strained them emotionally and some what financially.

With knowing all that though and being honest with myself, that IS what is going to help keep me sober. I don't want to keep doing things that hurt the other people around me that I truly love. It's not fair to them and they deserve a much better mother, friend, sister, daughter, etc.

[daydream]

Well, there are different schools of thought on how honest one must be. I've been told by sponsors that only 100% honesty and making amends for the tiniest things, is acceptable. I've been told that I should be honest and make amends for things as little as holding resentments against someone 25 years ago or stealing a 20 dollar bill from my mother's purse when I was 13. But that sounds more like forced morality than doing what is neccessary for recovery.

What I truly believe, is that we must be as honest as we need to feel okay in our own skin, and as honest as we need to be to avoid problems that would threaten our recovery. I feel perfectly fine not telling my mother I took $20 from her 27 years ago. I would explain my reasoning, but someone would surely pounce on it. It doesn't bother me to not pay taxes on a yard sale. Who does??? But if I steal something from a store or a person, I start to feel icky inside. That's a threat to my recovery. That being said, I ....oops, I started to say I don't hold anything back from my sponsor, but there have been a few occasions where I did something dishonest, like the time I took a shirt from a store...my only experience with stealing from a business. I do still feel icky about that, but only on the rare occasions that I remember it. Just haven't been willing to let her know I did something that ugly. Sure it would be nice if I was 100% honest all the time (except for harming others with that honesty), but I have not found that level of willingness. And I am not justifying stealing that shirt and not telling my sponsor. It is so not okay for me to hold that back. Darn, I wasnt' expecting to uncover anything in this share, lol. But overall, the level of honesty I DO have feels good enough. I don't have to be perfect. Okay, okay, I'm going to call my sponsor now and tell her about the shirt. Darn ya'll , lol.

[daydream]

Okay, I just told my sponsor about the shirt. First she laughed, then said for the hundredth time that I'm really good at justifying, then reminded me of some other things I'm still justifying, then she just laughed some more. I love my sponsor :-)

[RufusACanal]

After working the Steps, how could there be any doubt as to the validity for a need to be honest in all of my affairs? Honest is a principle and for this Alcoholic, principles need to be practiced in all my affairs.

This is not sophomore college philosophy, but rather building and growing in a new life; telling the truth, living in the truth is basic.