Can an Atheist work the AA 12 steps?

[digderidoo]

I have had issues with the God issues in the steps since i first went to AA about 6 months ago.

At the moment i am at step 3, but because of my strict religious upbringing i am at loggerheads with it. Initially i tried to go the Atheist route and looked at the 12 step secular programme.

For me though i have accepted i am not an atheist so therefore have to look at the God and spirituality issues.

At the meeting tonight i have heard how people say there prayers in the morning, after talking to my sponsor i realise that this is going to be part of step 3. I feel this is going to be a difficult one for me. I was talking to an atheist after the meeting and he was saying that he has issues with it.

After talking to my sponsor he told me that an atheist cannot work the AA properly. I feel he is wrong in stating this, but this is what he believes. Do others feel the same?

I guess i am looking too deep into this as i am not an atheist, more an agnostic because of my upbringing, but i certainly do not have a god of my own understanding so i would be interested as to how an atheist works the programme.

Paul

[doorknob]

Originally Posted by digderidoo

Initially i tried to go the Atheist route and looked at the 12 step secular programme.

I'm curious as to what this refers to. Have you looked at our secular forums here?

DK

[digderidoo]

Yes doorknob, also a humanist 12 step programme. The thing for me though is that i am somewhere between an atheist and an agnostic. I do not have an understanding of God and to be honest do not want one.

I feel my higher power is the collective group of AA, so why should i shift that higher power to a god that i have no understanding of?

I do not understand however how someone who views their higher power as the AA group can pray each morning, to what does he pray?

I feel i will be stuck on this step 3 indefinately. The answers i seem to be getting from my sponsor and others is that i will develop an understanding, with this i do not feel comfortable.

Paul

[nandm]

Just for my personal clarification I did some research to ensure I was understanding the terms atheist and agnostic properly. Here is a summary of what I found.

An atheist, like a Christian, holds that we can know whether or not there is a God. The Christian holds that we can know there is a God; the atheist, that we can know there is not. The Agnostic suspends judgment, saying that there are not sufficient grounds either for affirmation or for denial. At the same time, an Agnostic may hold that the existence of God, though not impossible, is very improbable; he may even hold it so improbable that it is not worth considering in practice. In that case, he is not far removed from atheism. His attitude may be that which a careful philosopher would have towards the gods of ancient Greece. If I were asked to prove that Zeus and Poseidon and Hera and the rest of the Olympians do not exist, I should be at a loss to find conclusive arguments. An Agnostic may think the Christian God as improbable as the Olympians; in that case, he is, for practical purposes, at one with the atheists. (quoted from: What is an Agnostic?
Bertrand Russell)

Personally, I considered myself to be athiest the majority of my life as an adult. I understand after spending some time here at SR that I in fact am more of an agnostic. I have 7 years of sobreity via A.A. so I would say that I am living proof an agnostic can work the steps of the program with success. As far as a true athiest working the steps, I can see where there would be problems because of the Higher Power thing. I was able to get past that by not considering it to be a "God" per se' but more of a power or universal energy as everything has energy and energy is a part of everything. By my being able to conceptualize something more powerful than myself I was able to work the steps. I still consider myself agnostic but have grown to respect those who are of a religious belief as I have found here at SR and in my life many who are religious but also have spirituality. That was also a concept I did not understand prior to AA.

Just my experience. As doorknob said you might check out our 12 step secular recovery forum as you might find some more people there who can share their ESH with you.

[nandm]

Originally Posted by digderidoo

I feel my higher power is the collective group of AA, so why should i shift that higher power to a god that i have no understanding of?

I do not understand however how someone who views their higher power as the AA group can pray each morning, to what does he pray?

The way I get around this is I meditate rather than pray. Basically get centered each day with meditation. I also have been working on practicing yoga as it is also a good way to get centered.

[doorknob]

There's a guy on here also named Paul, also from the UK, who I believe can offer some guidance (not to say that others here can't). I'm strictly a secular guy and not an AA person, so I can't help. But others will be along soon! My name is Paul too, BTW!

[CarolD]

Interesting ....it is because of my strict religious background
that I felt quite at home with the spiritual concept of AA.
.
It was heartwarming for me to return to my childhood
Sunday School God of forgivness and love....

I gave up predicting who will stay sober...with or without AA.

About your morning prayers...I'd try simply saying
"May the AA group move forward today"

None of this is by the book AA....
Just my experience and suggestion Paul.

[digderidoo]

Thanks for your comments so far.

Nandm,

You make a good suggestion regarding meditation, i have not considered this. I have looked into Buddhist philosophy over the years which sits well with my line of thinking. However i have drawn a line under it due to the reincarnation teachings.

Because i like their lifestyle philosophy i have actually considered meditation over the previous months. I feel as though this may help me to keep that inner peace that comes with sobriety. I didn't consider that this may be an alternative to the praying each morning, so thanks for the suggestion.

Paul

[NOMOMERLOTMAMMA]

I don't think you are stuck, I think you are right there. It's cool that you are willing, and that's the key.."willing to believe in a power greater than yourself". Once I got that, hell yeah I was willing (I wasn't doing too well using my own personal power).

I like that I don't have to define it, neither to myself nor anybody else. As I keep working, it is slowly showing itself to me.

[nandm]

Originally Posted by digderidoo

You make a good suggestion regarding meditation, i have not considered this. I have looked into Buddhist philosophy over the years which sits well with my line of thinking. However i have drawn a line under it due to the reincarnation teachings.

Because i like their lifestyle philosophy i have actually considered meditation over the previous months. I feel as though this may help me to keep that inner peace that comes with sobriety. I didn't consider that this may be an alternative to the praying each morning, so thanks for the suggestion.

Paul

I incorporate some aspects of Buddhism and several other philosophies and religions within my personal beliefs. I just look at it as picking what I believe is the best of all philosophies and religions to work into my own beliefs and life.

[bballdad]

Paul.I heard a man speak at a meeting last year who said he entered AA as a atheist.He had problems with the God stuff and step 3

He said he skipped step 3,and went ahead and did step 4 & 5.
He had such a experience on step 5,he then was able to go back to step 3 and do it.
He had been sober about 18 years now I believe.

As for me,my second step and third step flowed together.
My conception of God and Religion and other things was mixed up.I was told I could set aside those old ideas that did not work for a new idea that might work and try it.
I was also told if I wanted to ,I could ask "whoever or whatever that may be out there" to pls keep me sober today.
I thought,yea,I can do that!

I tryed it and it worked.Weeks later,I got out of my truck at work one day and I noticed something was missing,the obsession to drink.I was thinking I could not remember the last time I had really thought of taking a drink.I was starting to enjoy sober living,even tho I was somewhat ill at times and restless.But that was my start,the willingness to let go and then the willingness to try and believe and ask for help.

The 3rd step tells me to turn my life(old drunken behavior's) and will(obsession to drink)
over to God as I understand Him.That was the simplest form of what I did as I now see it.
Hope some of this may help you Paul

Paul,I would like to add that a oldtimer came up to me one day after we had discussed step 2 and asked me a question that really got me to thinking

how did you come to disbelieve?(in a Power Greater than yourself)
That question really helped me to see some things...and really had me doing some deep thinking..

[lizw]

of course an Atheist can work the 12 steps.
That's why the term 'as we understand him' is in the steps.

Personally I am not an atheist, but came from a religous background, extreme at times. I.e. my bad behaviour as a teenager was put down to Santan possession. Serious. These days I'd call that spiritual abuse.

If you ask round at the meetings you attend you'll probably find a few. I've been told they don't like to have it advertised (the fact that they are atheists) as some people in AA try to take their inventory for them, if you know what I mean.

[AW2486]

Yes.. AA uses the "God" term a whole bunch.

I guess I've seen a lot of posts especially in the newcomer forum that have the same issues about being turned off to God early in life, and can't get past the God issue in AA.

God in AA can be whatever you want it to be. I'm glad its that way otherwise I would have never stuck around.

Maybe with a little willingness to the possibility of the concept of God, write down on paper what you would want your God to be, and start with that.

Best of Luck

Andy

[doorknob]

Originally Posted by lizw

If you ask round at the meetings you attend you'll probably find a few. I've been told they don't like to have it advertised (the fact that they are atheists) as some people in AA try to take their inventory for them, if you know what I mean.

That's really disheartening.

[ananda]

Basically In the big book it says either god is everything or god is nothing....I have concluded that god is nothing...though I waffle sometimes...If "god" exsists...I don't think much of him and don't care what he thinks of me.

So...I work the steps and AA. I believe in many power's greater than myself. The law of cause and effect is a big one to me..but there are others. I like the Law of c&e because it is always there, consistant at all time (though complicated adn hard to see at times), it doesn't judge and nothing about it is personal.

I turn my wil and my life (my ego or "self") over to the care of the spiritual path I am on. I let the path remove my defects as it will and when it will. I make amends after doing an inventory, I review my actions, "ask" (no one in particular) for help to see things in terms of the whole, to live with compassion to let us all walk with compassion and skill through the world of cause and effect and practice meditation (zazen style). I try to help others who I come in contact and to live by the principles that I learned I have (not someone elses).

So that's how I do it. And yes the secular thread or secular 12 step thread could have some posts that might help you with your struggles.

remember sponsors are not always right and just cause people in aa say something doesn't mean its true....be sure to keep a few grains of salt in your hand

[sugErspun]

Are you willing to believe that there is 'something' out there - perhaps beyond words or description?

Some reason behind all this (life,death,time,the planet,solar system, galaxy, universe)?

The third step is just being willing to take the attitude that maybe there is something even though we may not know what it is.

There are so many different ways that people come to know 'God' in their own way, by working the twelve steps. It's a very personal experience, and very real...one of my favorite things about AA is that we share this common, private experience openly and don't pass judgement on others concept of what a higher power is - afterall, the concept can only be described with words - which I feel are not sufficient..there has to be an experience behind it. I believe the 12 steps can produce this experience.

Have you read 'We Agnostics' in Alcoholic Anonymous? Take some time and give it a read - consider it carefully. I found it very helpful. Also - read Appendix II, clears up a little just what is meant by spiritual experience.

After all - if you have admitted complete powerless over alcoholism, there are really only two options, drinking to the end, or seeking a spiritual solution. You'd be amazed at how the 'seeking' and solution are one in the same.

As the buddhists would say - "The Path is the goal".

[stone]

Originally Posted by nandm

The way I get around this is I meditate rather than pray. Basically get centered each day with meditation. I also have been working on practicing yoga as it is also a good way to get centered.

Originally Posted by nandm

I incorporate some aspects of Buddhism and several other philosophies and religions within my personal beliefs. I just look at it as picking what I believe is the best of all philosophies and religions to work into my own beliefs and life.

Originally Posted by ananda

I turn my wil and my life (my ego or "self") over to the care of the spiritual path I am on.

"Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him"
(part of step 11)

By meditating I feel I am making contact with something higher than me, it takes to me to a place with less ego...

So by meditating I am making contact with my HP, the direct experience of something greater than me has become a concept of a higher power that I can understand.

[digderidoo]

Thank you for all your comments, they have been helpful.

Carolid, it is interesting how you feel comfortable in AA because of your upbringing. For me it is the opposite. I was brought up a Jehovah's Witness, so entering a group that speaks of God outside of this religion is totally alien to me.


Nomomer, thanks for the words of support. I do believe there is a power greater than myself, it's just i cannot define it and have issues with attempting to.


Nandm, i like your way of coming to a belief system that sits well with you. I feel it's best for me too, to pick out things i like from different philosophies.


Bball, i do not know whether skipping step 3, then returning later would work for me. I think i would always be thinking about it anyway. I, like you have lost my obsession to drink (well for today anyway and hopefully tomorrow). This happened for me though at step 1. In getting acceptence that alcohol has beaten me, i came to the conclusion why fight it so i threw in the towel and not craved or wanted a drink since. It felt and still feels empowering. I like your thinking of turning your life over, to mean old drunken behaviour.

lizw, i get the feeling too around meetings that some do not like it discussed if you do not have that belief in God. This i feel though is the fault of some individuals, rather than the AA itself.

AW, i like your suggestion of writing it down on paper, i think i may do that to start, thank you.

Doorknob, don't be disheartened by how some feel in AA about others who do not have that same belief in God. I have come to the conclusion that within AA, people are not perfect. What works for some does not always work for others, however some Christians in particular have found such a life changing inner peace within themselves that they feel that this will work for everybody. If some in AA want to push that belief system on others it is because they want to help, in the same way it has helped them.

Ananda, I like your cause and effect philosophy, i think i may take this on board. I keep telling myself what you say that people in AA are not always right. I think because i have come from a religion that dictates it is always correct that may be at times i transfer that philosophy to AA, which imo is a bad thing to do at times.

Sugerspun, i do believe there is something out there, defining it is the problem for me, so when i hear that people in AA pray each morning i feel that i am at a dead end at times on this step. I have read 'we agnostics', three times now, each time i read it i get something from it. I take on board what you have said about the spiritual path, i like that philosophy that the path is the goal.

Stone, i am beginning to think that meditation is the way for me, rather than prayer, thank you.

Thanks for all your comments on this so far, there is a vast wealth of knowledge and experience here. I will continue with this site, i haven't really used it over recent months. I like the ideas of meditation, rather than prayer. Since leaving the religion i was brought up in about 15 years ago i have considered prayer from time to time as a form of meditation. Inner peace comes from both.

Paul

[Tazman53]

That's really disheartening.

DK one very important thing I have learned in AA is to not worry about what other people think of me, it is none of my business. The things they can not ever say about me is I am drunk, I am a liar, I am not to be trusted, what ever else they may think is simply their opinion and an opinion is like a butthole, everyone has one and they usually stink!

DK be honest, do you not have an opinion of those who are religous? So what is the matter with others having an opinion of those without religion. I am sure there are a lot of folks that feel I am a Pagan or what ever, but I could care less what they think, I know what I know and I am sober and happy.

Now to the original topic.... I heard an athiest speaker one time and I was really impressed with how he worked his program, he was actually a sponsor of a Minister.

One of my sponsee's is an agnositc, he has worked all 12 steps, he has almost a year and a half sober, he is happy, joyous, and free today. He is spiritual, he has a HP of his understanding, along the lines of Nandm.

I am not an aethiest nor an agnostic, but the God of my understanding is not the God of any religion or sect, he is my HP whom I chose to call God.

It is simply a willingness to believe there is a power greater then ones self and alcohol, that is all it takes to start to develop an understanding of ones HP. Ones HP do not need to align with any one elses in any way, shape form or fashion.