9th step ?

[mjs]

Has anyone heard the story reported in the washington post about a guy who confessed to a girl he raped over 20 years ago at UVA as part of his 9th step and ended up getting jail time? I have some stuff in my amends that while no where near this....my sponsor thinks I should fess up...when it says them or others does others include my family who would suffer for sure...

[NOMOMERLOTMAMMA]

There's a good thread with lots of thoughts on 9th Step amends going right now..might help you. Helped me!

[jimhere]

It's in the book.

[Tazman53]

Usually, however, other people are involved. Therefore, we are not to be the hasty and foolish martyr who would needlessly sacrifice others to save himself from the alcoholic pit.

My sponsor and I have spoken of this, if I wound up in prison due to fessing up to something to clean my side of the street will this bring harm to my wife and children?

Do I put myself ahead of my family to save myself?

This is where talking with ones sponsor is crucial, yes we need to be willing to make all amends, but not at the expense of others.

mjs not knowing what you speak of I will with hold any opinion, that is something that I would suggest you pray long and hard on and then speak to your sponsor at length on. If the amends are due and it will result in financial difficulties for you and your family, well that is something between you, your HP, and your sponsor.

If it was one of my sponsee's looking to make amends about something financial and it would crush him and his family by making amends immediately I would probably suggest he set aside money each payday until he could afford to make the amends and then do so without ruining his families finances.

[ananda]

The BB also talks about speaking with those who will be effected (like family, business partners etc.).

I have an amend my sponsor doesn't think I should make. I think I need to. But I will wait and not rush on it. pray meditate and the answer will come. My family who will be effected do not at this point support me making the ammend...but these things can change.

[Rob B]

God is everything or nothing, Like Jim said, directions on the 9th step are in the book, prayer, meditation and consultation with folks who have experience are important. I had amends that I was worried about as well, I was able to make them and today I am free. PM me if you would like some considerations.

[RufusACanal]

Who has the Power, God or you? It's in the Book.

[cwilson066]

We just had a discussion about this in my Big Book meeting (we were reading page 78). One of the guys knew of someone who recently travelled from NY to FL to serve a couple days in jail.

One thing - he did involve a lawyer BEFORE making the amends. Maybe getting an idea of the actual possibilities, rather than projecting, would make this easier?

Ask your family - would they rather you do this amends, or go back to drinking?

[lizw]

Of course God has the power but he/she/it gave us brains so we could think! And sure we are alcoholic and have done some stupid/dumb/harmful things but martyring ourselves isn't going to solve anything nor is it the point of step 9.

In the BB (round step 9) there is the story about the guy who owes money to his first wife etc... It would be well worth a read.

It would also be worth while asking a few old timers/long timers in your area rather than just taking your sponsors word as gospel.

When I first got sober there was a group of us that all use to kick round together and as I was going about making my amends one of the guys asked me if I was going to make direct amends to everyone I had harmed.

He asked because part of his story was that he was involved in gangs, mostly as a 'debt collector'. He told me he blew up someones house and asked if he would have to make direct amends for that in particular. He didn't go into the finer details like if the people knew it was him etc... But I told him I didn't have a clue and now (10 years later) I still don't have a clue. At the end of the day he never started his 4th step so went back drinking.

The BB directs wise counsel so I would encourage you to seek it, as I suggested, from old timers/long timers in your area and then when push comes to shove, it is between you and your god/hp.

Good luck. Whatever you decide to do it will be the right thing.

[bballdad]

I heard of the story
I believe he was wrong to contact her
he had no right to try and clear his conscience at her expense.He hurt her many years ago,and now he has hurt her again.He put her thru hell once,and now he`s done it again.He also hurt his family and himself.
But with that said,if he puts this whole situation in God`s hands,God will make the best of it.Some good can still come from it.

[navysteve]

when it says them or others does others include my family who would suffer for sure...

Yes it does include your family. That is pretty simple ( and in the book). I don't pay too much attention to those stories you hear in AA. We do like to spin yarns. But in all seriousness, I have known a few who have faced jail time in the making of amends, and if that is what it takes to make something right then I guess you and God have some talking to do. But only you can decide, make no amends because your sponsor says. Do them when you are ready ( but I hope you get ready!)

[nandm]

Here is one article that I found at CBS.com I have posted my thoughts below the article. I appologize for the length of my post but felt the need to share my thoughts.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Man Sentenced For 1984 Rape

CHARLOTTESVILLE, Va., March 15, 2007
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(AP) A man who sexually assaulted a University of Virginia student in 1984 and apologized to her two decades later as part of the Alcoholics Anonymous program was sentenced to 18 months in prison Thursday.

William Beebe, 42, pleaded guilty in November to one count of aggravated sexual battery for his attack on Liz Seccuro.

Charlottesville Circuit Court Judge Edward Hogshire ordered a 10-year prison sentence with all but 18 months suspended, as long as Beebe performs 500 hours of community service related to issues of sexual assault and alcohol abuse on college campuses. Prosecutors had recommended two years.

"I'm not trying to excuse my behavior, but I was a different person then," Beebe said. "I have a purpose, and that gives life meaning. I didn't have that then."

The case was revived in 2005 after Beebe wrote Seccuro a letter of apology in an attempt to make amends for the assault as part of AA's recovery program. The program's ninth step calls on alcoholics to make amends to those they have harmed, unless doing so would cause further injury. In an exchange of e-mails that ensued, Beebe wrote: "I want to make clear that I'm not intentionally minimizing the fact of having raped you. I did."

Seccuro, 40, of Greenwich, Conn., was given a drink at a party that made her feel strange, and she later passed out, leaving her memory hazy. She said she vividly recalls being attacked by Beebe, but always had a vague impression she'd been assaulted by additional members of the fraternity.

Beebe, of Las Vegas, originally was charged with rape and object sexual penetration and could have faced a sentence of life in prison if convicted. But in November, he entered into a plea deal after investigators uncovered new information suggesting Seccuro was attacked by more than one person that night.

Seccuro eventually called Charlottesville police to report what had happened. There is no statute of limitations on felonies in Virginia, and Beebe was arrested in Las Vegas.

Seccuro said that she reported the assault to university officials in 1984 but that a dean and the campus police treated her dismissively.

Seccuro, who says she has forgiven Beebe for assaulting her, said an apology is not a substitute for punishment. The attack changed her life dramatically, she said, and she deserves to finally see justice served.

Several people testifying on Beebe's behalf Thursday said he is a kind and generous friend who often helped other recovering substance abuse addicts.

"Will didn't tell me what to do, he showed me," said William Daniel Griggs Jr. of Richmond, who credited Beebe with helping in his recovery. He also said that Beebe helped care for his sick son several years ago.

Seccuro sat grimly through the testimony of Beebe's supporters. At one point she put a hand on the shoulder of her visibly agitated husband.

Prosecutor Claude Worrell described Beebe's decision to apologize as selfish, and said it traumatized Seccuro all over again. Defense attorney Rhonda Quagliana responded that it was "sad and tragic" that Beebe's apology was depicted that way, and said Securro made a choice to respond to his letter.

Securro, visibly shaken, left the courtroom. Later, Worrell shot back, "As it relates to Mr. Beebe, Elizabeth Seccuro has never had a choice."

Seccuro went public with her name and story, hoping to lead other sexual assault survivors to seek help. She launched STARS — Sisters Together Assisting Rape Survivors — to raise money for rape victims and their families.

Hogshire clearly struggled with the sentence, saying what Seccuro went through was horrific, but that Beebe went on to be a leader in the recovery community.

"Is he remorseful?" the judge asked. "I think so."



© MMVII The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

As a woman who has been through sexual abuse and rape I am going to weigh in on this topic. Personally, I believe there is no excuse for rape whether it be "sorry, I was a drunk at the time" or whatever. I don't feel that simply because the guy got sober means he should not pay for the crime he committed. The bottom line is he did commit a crime. That crime left a victim, someone who's life was changed because of the choices he made. People may think that a rape or sexual assult is something the person should just get over or that the pain, fear, and anger just goes away with time. That is not the case. It is something that stays in the persons subconcious and affects all of their actions. It leaves the person a little on edge all the time, contributes to anxiety disorders, PTSD, depression, and many other mental health disorders. It can mean long term or life long therapy and many times medication. It can affect relationships with spouses or significant others. Anyone who has been married or in a relationship with a survivor of sexual abuse/assult can attest to the damage it does to the survivor.

That said my thought is why should the victim continue to pay for the crime for the rest of her life but yet the perpetrator get off scot free because he "is sober now and sorry for his actions"?

Making ammends is not about making ourselves feel better. It isn't about getting out of the consequences for our actions. It is about letting go of resentments, letting others heal, and paying for what we have done whether that be financial or physical (like jail time).

The part in the BB about not hurting others does not mean that we shouldn't pay for the crimes we committed. We are not included in the "others". If we were then why in the world would anyone make an ammends? When we make an ammends we have to be prepared for whatever it takes to make the ammends.

I personally think it took a lot of courage for the man to try to make ammends. From my perspective I wish that the person who commited the crime against me would have the courage to at least admit they did something wrong. That would help release some of the pain I have surrounding the issue.

Now for what the Big Book really says about Ammends rather than just my opinion. Although I will provide my opinion after each quote.

Bill W. expressed willingness

I expressed my entire willingness to approach these individuals, admitting my wrong. Never was I to be critical of them. I was to right all such matters to the utmost of my ability.

This clearly states we are to be prepared to do whatever it takes to make matters right if at all possible.


Made direct ammends

Made direct ammends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

This does not state that we are off the hook if it might injure us.

Ammends to God

Many of us said to our Maker, as we understood Him: "God, I offer myself to Thee---to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy will always!

We must be willing

We must be willing to make amends where we have done harm, provided that we do not bring about still more harm in so doing.

directions for making ammends

Now we go out to our fellows and repair the damage done in the past. We attempt to sweep away the debris which has accumulated out of our effort to live on self-will and run the show ourselves. If we haven't the will to do this, we ask until it comes. Remember it was agreed at the beginning we would go to any lengths for victory over alcohol.

We falsly believe that by avoiding our responsibility to right our wrongs we have escaped punishment for them. When we think fo many of the people we have harmed, we feel the cringe of guilt and hope never to see them again. This self-imposed punishment is far worse than the humilation or judgment from others we fear we will recieve when we admit our mistakes. The replacement of our fear with the feeling of release brought about by our ammends is proof positive that this spiritual way of life works. This is spiritual experience that we can draw upon when faced with fear and doubt of what to do when we are in conflict with others.
The debris caused by our misapplication of self-will blocks us from God, hinders our progress, and chains us to the past. We must clear up these matters to be free to live our new lives. Not dealing with the harms we cause in a timely manner allows them to build up. This piling up of neglected responsibilities makes the load we carry in life unbearable. In the Eigth Step we learn how to right our wrongs and in the Tenth Step we learn how to prevent them from beginning to pile up again.

.....It does not matter; however, if someone does throw us out of his office. We have made our demonstration, done our part. It's water over the dam.
..........Perhaps we have committed a criminal offense which might land us in jail if known to the authorities.......We have already admitted this in confidence to another person, but we are sure we would be imprisonded or lose our job if it were known.........Although these reparations take innumerable forms, there are some generala principles which we find guiding. Reminding ourselves that we have decided to go to any lengths to find a spiritual experience, we ask that we be given strength and direction to do the right thing, no matter what the personal consequence may be. We may lose our position or reputation, or face jail, but are willing. We have to be. We must not shrink at anything.

We make direct amends to those we have harmed except when to do so would harm them or others. We sometimes hear that we are to consider ourselves as one of the "others". This is not what the book says. We have avoided making amends because we feared the consequences, thus the weight of our misdeeds builds into an unbearable load. By facing the consequences, whatever they may be, we bring our faith in God to life. We do not make amends under our own power, but under the guidance and protection of God. There are some who believe that the making amends was wrong because it affected his family. To that I say read the Book. It talks about not implicating others by our amends but it does not say that we can justify not taking responsibility for our actions because it might hurt our family. If the man had been involved in a gang rape it would be wrong for him to tell who else was involved as that would be implicating others but he is still responsible for making amends for his part in the rape.

[ananda]

I have an ammend to make that may have legal consequences. It is on hold right now. This thread is of interest to me.

When I read the BB I read that If my amend will have a negative concequence to my family or business partners for example, that I should consult with them prior to making an amend.

I know that my family and workplace will have harm caused to them if I make this amend and the legal concequences result. That doesn't mean that I won't make the ammend....I have a very strong belief that I must make the amend as it truley would help relieve the suffering of the person I harmed.

However, since sponsors, friends, family all are dead set that it would be the wrong thing to do...I am not seeking out making the amend at this point. It's very difficult when I am truley committed to not harming people around me and harming people is actually always going to happen....this seems like a choice about which people I will hurt further.

When I learn more, I will share more, but I am more in the process of walking through this then having the expereince of the solution.

[navysteve]

That said my thought is why should the victim continue to pay for the crime for the rest of her life but yet the perpetrator get off scot free because he "is sober now and sorry for his actions"?

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that making amends means we get off scott free. I am sorry you have suffered such a crime.

We make direct amends to those we have harmed except when to do so would harm them or others. We sometimes hear that we are to consider ourselves as one of the "others".

Absolutely! But when it comes to "others" we need to be careful about the people other than ourselves who will be affected and weigh that against the amend to be made. I have known people who have willingly faced jail time in the hopes of making amends and bringing closure to those they harmed. Those people did not try to get off of anything. I know a man who did ten years in the state pen for crimes he did in his alcoholism.

[nandm]

Originally Posted by navysteve

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that making amends means we get off scott free. I am sorry you have suffered such a crime.

I believe you misunderstood my statement or took it out of context. The question was in regards to whether the man should pay for his crime. I in no way said that making an amend was not a way to pay for it. I just asked a simple question of why should the victim be the one to pay while the man doesn't make an amend becuase he might have to suffer the consequences. The man did the right thing by making the amend. If you read the article it also states his sentance is not as bad as it would have been as even the judge had respect for the man standing up and taking responsibility for his actions.

Absolutely! But when it comes to "others" we need to be careful about the people other than ourselves who will be affected and weigh that against the amend to be made. I have known people who have willingly faced jail time in the hopes of making amends and bringing closure to those they harmed. Those people did not try to get off of anything. I know a man who did ten years in the state pen for crimes he did in his alcoholism.

I still feel that it is way to easy for an alcoholic to use that as a cop out for not paying the consequences for his/her actions. "Oh my, I might have to go to jail and then my wife and kids would not have as much of an income." "Oh my, my wife will be mad at me and she might divorce me, that isn't fair to her." Just for the record "closure" is a word used by people who have not had these types of crimes commited against them. It is a lifelong process to recover from this type of crime.

[navysteve]

" Just for the record "closure" is a word used by people who have not had these types of crimes commited against them. It is a lifelong process to recover from this type of crime.

No offense, but you don't know the first thing about me or what crimes were committed against me. I find that statement very offensive

[nandm]

Originally Posted by navysteve

No offense, but you don't know the first thing about me or what crimes were committed against me. I find that statement very offensive

And you know nothing about me. I did not intend to offend you and do appologize. Your attack on me I also found offensive but let it go since I know you know nothing about me or where I am coming from.

[navysteve]

I never attacked you or your views

[nandm]

Originally Posted by navysteve

I never attacked you or your views

OK then lets leave well enough alone.

[Tazman53]

And we have ceased fighting anything or anyone, even alcohol.

.

[nandm]

Thanks Taz, my thank you button doesn't work. I sometimes need a reminder especially around topics that are very close to the heart. This one was especially close to me as I can view it from both sides of the fence. Not that I ever raped someone while drunk but I have done stupid things such as drive with my kids in the car while drunk. I also have a huge amount of respect for the man for following through with the amends and being willing to face the consequences for his action. From the victims point of view though I can understand wanting him to pay for his crime. It really leaves me in a position of being very torn on the subject which in turn has left me a little on edge in my responses.

[lizw]

As a female member of AA, and like most woman I know in AA, I've survived sexual abuse/rape as a child, a teenager and on the downward slide into AA.

I think the whole sexual abuse/rape arena (if one can call it that) is a VERY sensitive topic in AA, just like it is in the real world.

What I wanted to say was that AA is the only place where I have seen victims and abusers get well, side by side.

[kj3880]

It is tricky. I'm a victim of one date rape and one attempted stranger rape. Neither attacker has ever apologized. The stranger did time for the attempt, but I never tried to prosecute the date rapist, as I was afraid no one would believe me at the time (I was very young).

I wonder how I would react to an apology? I think that it would scare me that a person who was sexually obsessed with me had figured out a way to contact me, even if a lawyer was used, and I might worry he was using the amend as a way to get back in touch.

On the other hand, I am still angry at times that he never had any known consequences for the rape. I am angry at me for not telling on him, too.

In a related story, In a meeting, we have a member with many years sober who talks openly about how he cannot stop his patterns of using prostitutes. It is affecting me. I never was a prostitute, but it just is a power thing for him the way he talks about the women he uses. I can tell that he enjoys this particular share, and he doesn't seem at all ashamed. I think talking about it in front of us women who are all uncomforable to hear it, is a turn on and power trip for him, like rape and sometimes paying for sex can be.

I can't stand to hear him talk about this subject. He often adds at the end of his sharing about this that he will make sure not to date any newcomers (as he says this, he sometimes even points at me and the other new girl that sits next to me) until we have at least a year sober because he doesn't want to damage our sobriety. As if I'd have anything to do with him, like, ever...ewwww.

Am I off the topic? I'm sorry for the rant. I Just got on the subject of people with power/sex addictions. It is tricky, for sure. Just to let you all know, I don't respond to his share in any way, but it sure does creep me out. Thanks for letting me share.
KJ

[lizw]

Originally Posted by kj3880

In a related story, In a meeting, we have a member with many years sober who talks openly about how he cannot stop his patterns of using prostitutes.

If you feel comfortable, you could try suggesting to him SLAA may help. A lot of the guys there have the same problem.

I can laugh now, but when I started attending their meetings, I had this god awful moment where I realised one of the members who had this problem, the prostitutes, (but has a few years soberity on acting out in it) is probably one of my former clients....had this same experinece in a AA meeting too, few years back. My sponsor at the time thought it was pretty funny and suggested we'd make a good couple in soberity. Ha,ha. It was funny, in that black humor kind of way.

[kj3880]

I think it just bothers me more than any other addiction because he is using actual people to acheive his high. At least with drugs or alcohol, an addict is not smoking or drinking an actual person (although we can really damage some actual people in our addictions to substances, too). It just so creeps me out that he doesn't really get that sex addiction, especially when you are using others, isn't any better than drinking or drugging. He always says at the end of his shares "At least I'm not using, though."

I know I'm gonna hear about this but hey, I'd rather he used drugs than women. What do you all think? I need to heal my own sick spirit? I still have resentments from what happened to me, I guess, that I need to step into. I need to not be angry about it, but I can't seem to help how I feel toward him. I talked to my temp. sponsor about this feeling, and she said that for now, just stay away from him and "work on you." Wise advice, I'm sure. I'm not allowed to roll my eyes when he talks either..lol.
KJ