I F'd up an amends

[NOMOMERLOTMAMMA]

Yup. I was on a roll last week and either didn't think too hard about it, or took the easy way out and now I have to make an amends for doing an amends half a**ed.

My sponsor already kicked my butt..for doing an amends via email. (I know, I know). I'm waiting for her to call me back, but thought I'd throw this out there.

I've tried to get this persons phone number. But, she emailed me today, so I asked her for it that way. Still waiting to get it. BUT, she's asking for answers to specific questions that she has, and I'm not sure if answering them would cause more harm, or if I'm being a chicken.

I had an affair with her husband years ago. She found out last year. She's looking for specifics. When/where/when did it end stuff like that.

What's the general consensus on specifics?

Thanks.

[Astro]

I seriously f'd up my first amends to my ex. Let's see if I can make a long story short:

I dropped my kids off at her house. She came out, I started to make my amends. She didn't like them, and took the keys out of my car until I made them the right way. The guy she had an affair with (and is married to now) came out of the house. I dragged him out to the street and started beating my amends into him. Before midnight, I had an assault charge and restraining order added to my trail of wreckage.

So...........I'm sure we're not the first to handle an amends poorly, and we certainly won't be the last.

Specifics? Tough call on that one. The Little Red Book suggests that "We come clean with God and make amends to loyal friends and relatives except when to do so might be harmful to them or others".

In this case will the truth hurt her even further? If it were me I'd consider carefully how much I revealed to the person, but be as truthful and honest as possible. Make sense?

[NOMOMERLOTMAMMA]

Yeah, this is a tough one. I have fully admitted the affair. I have admitted my defects of character that led to it. I've asked for her forgiveness.

Part of me is thinking that she is just stirring stuff up, however, I certainly can't blame her for her questions. I just don't want to screw this one up any further. You know, if specifics are what I have to give her to be completely honest, well then I'll do it. I just can't see it doing her any good that's all.

Thanks Scott..good to know that I have company. :-)

[deezaldog]

This is a tough one. Astro gave great advice. Would specifics be worse or better? She knows it happened so more could be worse. It could give her more to grieve over. I would do a whole lot of praying on this one. If it was me, I would do it in person if possible and not add insult to injury. It happened, the specifics should not be important. Why does she feel the need to know specifics? Are they still together? I think it would hurt more. Good luck and I will add you in my prayers. Eliz

[dgillz]

No on specifics. It is not needed. Apologize and that's it. If anything the specifics will make it harder for her to forgive her husband, there is no upside to it, only downside.

[NOMOMERLOTMAMMA]

I feel very strongly that if I did it in person, she might possibly become violent. My sponsor has agreed that the phone is an ok choice.

They are still together.

[miss communicat]

Originally Posted by Astro

Specifics? The Little Red Book suggests that "We come clean with God and make amends to loyal friends and relatives except when to do so might be harmful to them or others".

I would also be well considered in how much detail I go into.

The facts:

You did it in the past. It is over and has been for years. You are sorry.You are sorry for causing any pain and sorrow in her life. It will never happen again.

Aside from owning your role in the actions of the past, and sticking to the facts I don't see how furnishing her with dates, times and locations will NOT cause more harm to others.

In general, unless a spouse is already aware of an infidelity from the past, I caution against interfering with their now intact and ongoing marriage. Did she already know that you two had had an affair in the past?

Otherwise, telling this woman now may cause harm to her husband or to their family.

This is a case that each of us must decide for ourselves, but I know for myself, I make living amends by vowing never to live a lie or a self centered deceit involving a partner, ever again. Its built in as part of my sobriety.

[Astro]

I do have to say that when making an amends I'd like the other person to forgive me, but ultimately it comes down to forgiving myself, and in doing that I'm forgiven by my HP.

deezal and dgillz had some great thoughts concerning specifics. There are a couple things I can't reveal to my ex, I know without a doubt they'd only hurt her even further, admitting them would only serve to forgive myself further.

The past is the past. Specifics won't change what's already been done.

[NOMOMERLOTMAMMA]

Thanks Miss C,

Yes, she found out last year when I was newly sober. It had been over for 6 months or so at that time. After speaking to my sponsor, I told her I was in the program, I apologised, and asked if she could find it in her heart to wait until I was on Step 9 to make a formal amends. She agreed. I'm not sure if I did do the amends correctly in the first place, if it still would've been enough for her.

Otherwise, I agree with you, I wouldn't never brought it up cause I know that it would hurt her, and is.

[Tommyh]

I have no right to clean my conscience at someone else`s expense
I would say no specifics
we`re there to clean off our side of the street,not to give ammo to someone else

[miss communicat]

Originally Posted by NOMOMERLOTMAMMA

Thanks Miss C,

Yes, she found out last year when I was newly sober. It had been over for 6 months or so at that time. After speaking to my sponsor, I told her I was in the program, I apologised, and asked if she could find it in her heart to wait until I was on Step 9 to make a formal amends. She agreed. I'm not sure if I did do the amends correctly in the first place, if it still would've been enough for her.

Otherwise, I agree with you, I wouldn't never brought it up cause I know that it would hurt her, and is.

oh, I see. Wow! She already knew AND you had already faced the hardest part: facing her and asking her forgiveness.

You are a shining example of beautiful recovery. Be gentle on yourself. None of us is perfect, but you are progressing every day!

I say no more details. It will do no good now.

[nandm]

Here is the BB's take on it

The chances are that we have domestic troubles.......Whatever the situation, we usually have to do something about it. If we are sure our wife does not know should we tell her? Not always, we think. If she knows in a general way that we have been wild, should we tell her in detail? Undoubtedly we should admit our fault. She may insist on knowing all the particulars. She will want to know who the woman is and where she is. We feel we ought to say to her that we have no right to involve another person. We are sorry for what we have done, and God willing, it shall not be repeated. More than that we cannot do; we have not right to go further. Though there may be justifiable exceptions, and though we wish to lay down no rule of any sort, we have often found this the best course to take.
.........Perhaps there are such cases where the utmost frankness is demanded. No outsider can appraise such an intimate situation. It may be both will decide that way of good sense and loving kindness is to let by-gones be by-gones. Each might pray about it, having the other one's happiness uppermost in mind. Keep it always in sight that we deal with that most terrible human emotion---jealousy. Good relationship may decide that the problem be attacked on the flank, rather than risk a face-to-face combat.

My understanding of this passage is that many times details only serve to make the pain and jealousy worse. To avoid causing more pain with our ammends the best approach is one of prayer for guidance keeping the others person's happiness in our mind rather than what might happen to us (embarrassment, hurt, etc...). This approach not only brings the power of God to bear upon situations that seem beyond our ability to rectify but also help our faith to grow as we learn from our own experience that we can rely upon God's help. The key is the change of focus in the prayer suggested above. Rather than pray for our desires to be satisfied, we pray with the other person's happiness foremost in our minds.

This of course is just my interpretation of the passage.

[LouLou629]

Iwould say if she and her husband are still together-let him answer her questions about what when and why...your an easy target for her backlash..its takes two to tango...I think a apology is sufficient... your sorry... god knows your sorry

[lizw]

Love the restraining order story. And I have to add that alcoholics are the only people I have met so far that force another to accept their amends.

All my amends were pretty calm and rational, and I'd suggest you don't give the lady cause to become abusive towards you. I.e. details of the affair. She can get them off her husband.

And I'm not trying to justify this for you, but I knew a lot of sick people, besides myself, when I was drinking/using and everyone was sleeping with everyones husbands/partners/flatmates/children etc... That kind of stuff is acceptable drinking behaviour for want of a better term. I'd keep it short and sweet, and as you and your sponsor wisely agreed on the phone.

On a funny note, I heard this guy at a meeting once tell a story about how when he was 15 years sober, he tracked down one of the counsellors at the first treatment centre he went to, and went to her house to thank her for her kindness. He also took flowers but when he got there, the lady wouldn't open the door to him, even when he explained who he was by shouting. She just wanted him to get the f** off her property.

[bostonluv]

Originally Posted by dgillz

No on specifics. It is not needed. Apologize and that's it. If anything the specifics will make it harder for her to forgive her husband, there is no upside to it, only downside.

I completely agree with you!!

[tommyk]

I wouldn't tell her.

She would probably just use it against her husband.

In my opinion your duty is to apologize sincerely, ensure her it will never happen again, and ensure yourself it will never happen again.

Move on.

[ananda]

Not causing harm to others include the 3rd party...in this case the one you had the affair with.

Making things worse for the husband so that I can feel better about myself is not for me a compassionate amend.

But, as has been mentioned, this is something that needs to be thought and prayed and meditated upon.

And we all make mistakes...just do the best you can!

[Tazman53]

Well Nandm already posted what I just finished looking up in the BB so I will simply say I concur with her.

You have done your part, there is no need for details, what purpose does it serve? It will bring more harm to her or to her husband. Simply tell her that it happened, it is over, it will not happen again and you are sorry it ever did happen. If she needs details tell her to speak to her husband.

[NOMOMERLOTMAMMA]

My sponsor said pretty much what you all are saying. No details. Thank you everyone for your input.

xo
Karen

[sugErspun]

Have you made ammends to the husband? It would seem that there is no need to add more harm to him than has already been done.

I read somewhere that in this process we are neither scraping or servile....

[Puddy]

Those type of amends are real tough and real tricky. I would suggest just going exactly by the AA Big Book: (I'm paraphrasing) - Perhaps we have been wild. Should we tell our spouse? Not always, we think. We can say in a general way that we've been wild, but we can't harm another person. Our spouse may want to know specifics, someone upon whom they can vent jealousy and rage. We say we have no right to involve another person. We are sorry and God willing, it shall never happen again. But we can't save our skin at someone else's expense.

That's the basic idea of what's written, and it gives us and the people who are apt to be real hurt over the amend (spouse and former fling) some wiggle room.

[NOMOMERLOTMAMMA]

The husband is not on my amends list, as I have no resentments towards him, and up until now, I haven't done anything to harm him. I will continue to try NOT to harm him by not giving any details to his wife, as much as she wants me to.

[jimhere]

I think f***ked up is a bit harsh. Try and look at this as something positive. Let me explain. You will be taking other women thru the steps. Now you an experience to share with them. You know what not to do. Any sponsor that doesn't share his or her mistakes with sponsorees is doing the sponsoree a disservice, IMO.

I made mistakes. Let me tell you all about one before I ever started the steps or had any idea what amends are about. This took place when I was about sixty days sober.

When I got sober, my marriage of ten years was falling apart. In fact it was gone beyond recall. My wife had kicked me out, gotten a restraining order, and filed for divorce. I felt really bad, because I woke up to the truth. I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that I had caused this harm and my conscience was eating my lunch.

Now, they made a mistake for guys like me when they put the steps on the wall, because they left out the directions in between. I though amends meant "I'm sorry," so driven by my guilty conscience and an absolutely selfish desire to feel better, I showed up at the house unannounced one day and gave her a bunch of mumbly sorry-ass crap. The same stuff she'd been hearing for ten years. I had no right to expect her to believe me. In fact, I had no right to expect her to ever even want to talk to me again.

After all the sorry stuff, she said " I know you're sorry. You are a sorry S.O.B. Now get off this porch!" Sad to say, she was right, and I knew it. Then the cops came and I spent a day in jail for breaking the restraining order. So when I finally did get to make real amends to her, part of it was for making amends.

There is more to this story-it all came out good, but I'll save that for another time.
Jim

[NOMOMERLOTMAMMA]

Thanks Jim..

Things are a bit more clear for me now.

My sponsor spoke with her sponsor, and agreed that the original amends was done, although in not the best way, so I just need to speak with the wife and make an amends for not being more direct in the doing of it.

I have the wife's number, and she's not available until Monday so that's when I'll call. If she tries to engage me in a discussion about details, I've been told to tell her that I'm not willing to go into it, and to politely tell her that I can't talk to her anymore if it gets hairy.

I'm sorta glad that this happened, because I had a good discussion with my sponsor regarding the overall amends process, and she did too with her sponsor, so it cleared up some gray areas that were there.

I"m stepping back from the actual doing of amends for awhile, and concentrating on the writing of them. I do have a big financial mess of an amends that I have no choice but to take care of right away, but that will be it for a few weeks.

Thanks!

[kj3880]

Here's my take on it:
I have a restraining order on my second ex-husband (yeah I know how screwed up "second ex-husband sounds, k?). That means, point blank, that I never want to see him again. Not to hear "I'm sorry" not for any of it. I don't want a card, flowers, letters, balloons, nuthin. Stay away. Make ammends to me by not coming over.

I think the same about anyone who's husband/wife you may have um...known while drinking. Stay away from the wronged spouse and make your ammends by not causing further pain. This isn't a cop-out. I'm a wronged party. I don't want to hear from you about you f'ing my hubby.

There isn't anything you can do to make me feel better but you can save me from the further pain of looking at you/hearing your voice again. Just my two cents. People get restraining orders for a reason...lol.
KJ