Relaspe and Honesty

[RufusACanal]

“Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average.”

I started this thread with the opening paragraph from Chapter Five to illustrate how simple a program of recovery is, if the Alcoholic is capable of honesty. Of late, I have read a number of posts from members in the Twelve Step forum who have recently admitted a return to drinking. I applaud the honesty and welcome their renewed determination to follow our path. “Keep coming back” was a fixture on the wall of an AA Clubhouse I attended early in my journey. Not only is this a reminder to the still suffering Alcoholic but as well to the recovering Alcoholic; there is always a door open for the Alcoholic who has a desire to stop drinking.

How can a returning relapsed, recovering Alcoholic provide experience, strength and hope on Steps beyond the First if they cannot stay sober one day at a time? These displays of grandiosity and self-importance stretch my tolerance until I am reminded that a lesson is available for me if I so choose to listen and watch. I gain nothing from belittling anyone, especially the Drunk who cannot get honest. I do know that my energy and time are better spent with those who are willing to be honest rather than with those who know it all and who cannot stay sober. It is remarkable how the Drunk has all of the answers except the one that might save their life; staying sober, One Day at a Time.



First Edition reference of Chapter Five of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous

[ananda]

HUH?????

I have alot of experience strength and hope to share on recovery and how well this program can work.

What I learned in my past sobriety is a huge resource to me today





recycled drunk with hope.

[RufusACanal]

Amanda, I am referring to those who can't stay sober.

[tommyk]

I heard a good one last night in someone's lead.

They said 'we are supposed to share our experience and hope, not what we hope to experience'.

[RufusACanal]

That says it all Tommy. Some want to declare the virtues of working the Steps and living a new life without the ability to personally stay sober. How can we as Members of AA and SR better help those who have a head full of knowledge and no practical ability to stay sober? How can we support those who cannot find their way without alienating them in the process as well?

[deezaldog]

I had been getting intolerant of the frequent relapser. Esp. ones that came back seeking sympathy for the troubles their relapse had created for them. My thought was yah, and? I was at a meeting last p.m. and two people admitted their relapse, they said nothing more. Both had been in the program for a short while. I learned that I am just a step and drink away from being in their shoes. Someone with 14 yrs sober and had been a frequent relapser welcomed them back. His statement was he was thankfull that his sponsor did not give up on him during his 8 yrs of relapses. I gained a little bit more tolerance.

[tommyk]

I now have an infinite amount of tolerance for those who relapse.

I'll tell them to keep coming back 100% of the time.

I welcome them earnestly when they do come back.

And when they keep doing the same things over and over, and keep talking like they know everything, and they keep failing, I cannot help wonder if they'll ever get it - but I keep these thoughts to myself and I extend 100% encouragement. This is my interpretation of what Rufus's first post is all about - not ridicule or belittlement, but an honest curiousity of whether the continual relapser really truly 'sees' what they are doing.

[lizw]

Originally Posted by tommyk

They said 'we are supposed to share our experience and hope, not what we hope to experience'.

I don't have a lot of tolerance for people who have been around AA for years and can't stay sober because (I don't know if anyone else has noticed this) when they share, they tend to go on and on about the 'program' and how it is helping them, then admit to drinking like it's raining outside. I.e. it was only a little drink but my daughter, she's just terrible bringing her boyfriend round and I'm trying to be tolerant etc..

To be completely honest I get quite annoyed and don't listen, I just tune out. I am saying this with a lady who is in my area, in mind, and she's been round longer than me and has never been able to stay sober, and talks about relapsing like it is 'no big deal'.

I suppose I am of the attitude, as dramatic as it is, that last time I checked drinking kills alcoholics.... nothing little about that!!!

[bballdad]

I sometimes tell them if they are not ready to go to any length to get sober and stay sober to get to drinking,they are wasting good drinking time,thats what was told to me and it was the truth,and it did not hurt my feelings.
babying them is not good for them,trying to keep someone sober who really do not want to get sober is a waste of our time and it sucks the life out of us

[Mala09]

A friend who relapsed on and off for years before finally getting and staying sober for 15 years recently shared with us on this topic. She said that those who let her think it was OK to go out drinking and come back in and minimise her teeny little slip' were not her friends.

When alcoholism finally brought her to the point of death, she said she realised what all those little slips had done to her chances of surviving alcoholism and how inexorable the progress of alcoholism is.

At one point she said: 'Relapse breeds relapse' and began to weep.

With all AA love & respect, Tommy, I don't think that '100% encouragement' is of any use if it allows relapsers to live in denial around their drinking or minimise the relapse. Before I came into AA I couldn't stop drinking and often felt others were ignoring the 'elephant in the living room' because they wanted to be kind and had given up on me. Alcoholism nearly cost me my life and I want to remember that. We are not talking about somebody on a diet who eats cream cakes and then gets back on track, feeling sheepish and full of excuses. We are talking about people dying because they didn't understand that a relapse can end in death or being unable to get sober again.

Honesty isn't about wagging fingers or shaming others, but it is about telling the truth as we understand it in love

Hugs

Mala

[AW2486]

The only requirement for AA membership is an honest desire to stop drinking.

So when they come in to AA.. my hand will always be there to welcome them back and I am always glad to see them return. No matter how many times they relapse. They are seeking hope every time they walk through the door.

I need to leave my ego and judgmentalism at home.

[tommyk]

Originally Posted by Mala09

With all AA love & respect, Tommy, I don't think that '100% encouragement' is of any use if it allows relapsers to live in denial around their drinking or minimise the relapse.

I agree, you are correct. Often times my 100% encouragement contains some points that the relapser doesn't find immediately encouraging (tough love). My main '100% effort' is in having them keep coming back no matter what.

Thanks.

[navysteve]

Folks,
With all due respect, we are in a room with sick people. "There are such unfortunates, they are not at fault". How can we help???? By showing tolerance instead of scorn. I was at a meeting once a few years ago where a man delivered a great tear jerker message. People came up to him and asked for his phone number in droves. A few days later he was in the paper as a suicide. He had a great AA message, all the right catch phrases, he paused at the right moments so people could nod their heads in agreement. He was still drinking...

We are people who suffer from a horrible spiritual malady

She said that those who let her think it was OK to go out drinking and come back in and minimise her teeny little slip' were not her friends.

The Big Book says different " It may be worth a bad case of jitters if you get a full knowledge of your condition. (PG 32)" I agree that to minimize drinking is never a good idea, but, for many it unfortunately does seemm to be a means to reaching that great moment of truth. ANd who are any of us to determine when that is for anyone?

[Lily]

From my experience, I have been that chronic relapser. I got sober in 1991 and relapsed in 1999 when my husband was diagnosed with brain cancer. Well, actually I CHOOSE to drink.

Since then, I have had binge type episodes off and on. Even up to over a year sober but not working a program or going to meetings.

Tomorrow I will have 6 months.... I can honestly say that when greeted back to the program ppl were welcoming and kind. I didn't need to get beat up or in your face type of additudes, I had enough of that out there. When I returned, I chose to return and work an honest program.

I do not think had anyone been "hard" on me it would have helped me to stay sober. When people come back to meetings after a relapse, I am so happy to see them, I let them know.....see, I love them, and I am so happy they have returned alive.

I recently shared in a meeting with a few ppl who had returned after a relaspe. I told them to keep coming back. I told them that at one point I drew that line in sand and told them I was sick and tired of the guilt and the shame and I was sick and tired of crawling back. I told them I was going to do everything different, and I did. I found a sponsor that night. (I have NEVER had a sponsor in 20 years of the program)

It is possible for relapsers to come back and work a great program. I am now holding the keys and am the secretary. I am working with my first newcomer.

I am glad I was welcomed back with love and respect and not eye rolling and intolerance. I am happy people trusted me.

My prayer is that I will always have empathy and tolerance towards a relapser. There is a verse that says the righteous man falls 7 times, but gets up 7 times.....now I know this is the bible and this is not a bible forum, but for me there is a lot of truth to that. Keep getting up, don't stay down, keep coming back, and find some winners to work with.

If all I have is today clean and sober and that is all that is promised, then for today I will stay clean. I do not know what tomorrow holds for me, I do not plan on going back out, but after having had 8 years before, I kind of had an additude that I would NEVER go back out.....I think I may have even looked down on those who "couldn't get it together" I do not hold that same cockiness today.

Well, I gotta get going cuz we are taking the boat out and hubby is getting mad at me for being on here. I didn't even want to take the boat out last year.......

everyone have a wonderful weekend.

Sheila

[353]

If a man gives good advice but fails to follow his own advice, that doesn't make bad advice, it makes the man a human being.

My higher power demands I concentrate on my problem, which is me. If I do that I have plenty of work to do without taking on others' shortcomings.

When I start to believe it's my responsibility to direct the lives of those around me because I've been blessed enough to string together some days of sobriety I'm right back where I started at day one, trying to direct the lives and world around me to suit my will.

[lizw]

When I was about 4 years sober I became friendly with a guy who'd come back to AA after relapsing for 2 years. Previous to this he'd been sober (in AA) for ten years. He was also quite a few years older than me. I must've been like 25 and he was 45.

There was a group of us who use to hang out and he sort of joined. We also use to go to the lunchtime meetings in our area together since we both had a day we opened the meeting etc... He also use to do all the banking for all the lunchtime groups. But because the meetings got loads and loads of change, he use to take it home, count it out and replace it with notes and chuck all the coins in his coin jar for a rainy day.

He also came to a few assemblies and conventions with us all and we (for awhile) use to eat dinner at each others house on a Sunday evening. We sort of had this roster thing happening and we'd get all excitied if we managed to rope a new person in.

This guys younger brother, about 3 or 4 years earlier, had 'diappeared' while on a business trip in Manilla. The business he was involoved in was drugs, so every few months the Police or the brothers 'business assicoates' would contact my friend and see if he had heard from his brother.

Anyway my friend after a few visits from the 'business assicoates' he agreed to have dinner with them, and as far as I know, couldn't say no to the temptation of big money and agreed to go to another country on business for them.

While none of us (in the group) encouraged him to go, we all told him it was a bad idea, he still went and then some of us began to get drunken phone calls from him, that really made no sense. I think the only one I did understand was he'd had some girl just leave his room and he'd drunk a bottle of vodka.

About the same time the phone calls started a lady who got sober round the same time as me, asked if I really believed he'd been sober, since before he went on his trip. Then she started naming off things he'd been doing in AA, that when viewed seperatly one would think they were a bit odd (no answering his door when I went to visit sometimes, blaming his aftershave if someone asked him while he smelled like booze etc...) but put together they obviously pointed to the fact he'd never stopped drinking.

The last conversation I had with him was via another long distance phone call, and I confronted him about still drinking prior to his trip. We exchanged many angry words, as you can imagin.

He came back from his trip and I stopped going to the meetings he was at. Most of the other people in our group confronted him too.

One of the last times I saw him was at a lunchtime meeting (he was eating Mac Donalds, which he use to hate but ate while drinking) and as he stood up to leave tons of coins fell out of his pockets and all over the floor. He'd obviously started to spend all his coins he'd been saving.

He was dead within 2 or 3 months of that and was found by his neighbours, outside his flat in the bush. They found him becasue of the smell. Police said he'd been there for days.

After that and for some other reasons, I started to attend Al Anon too.
I considered him to be one of my 'friends' in Alcoholics Anonymous and I felt a lot of regret over how our friendship ended. I knew there must be a way to remain friends with people who still drink, despite the fact that they call themselves alcoholics.

So what have I learned there? Well, to start with I (alone) can't get or keep another person sober. I have also learnt I am not responsible for another person drinking or for another persons life or choices, even if the other person thinks I am.

[tommyk]

Amen to that, Liz.

Powerful final sentence too.

[gravity]

At my meeting today, two regular members admitted to relapses with pretty serious consequences. One thought I had was "they just don't get it." Another thought I had was "I bet I have said a lot of things and other people were thinking that I don't get it."

Oh well..we were all at an AA meeting, sober, not giving up. Can't really ask for anything more.

[ananda]

The problem for me is that as a human being...sometimes I get it and sometimes I don't....and it is hard to tell when I'm where

That is why when it talks in the BB about starting our day it we ask for the pause when we face indecision and ask for right thought or action...and also about consulting others. A sponsor is good cause they should know me much better than many others and therefore are more able to judge whether my "inspiration" appears to make since in light of my particualr cercumstances and stuff.

Every day I strive to be as honest as I am capable of being...that is what I can do....I have an HP that helps to sort out the rest.

[RufusACanal]

At some point, a new life is about carrying the message to the still suffering Alcoholic. Through the progression of working all of the Steps, not just those that seem relevent, the recovering Alcoholic is ready to pass on the life giving message to another. This thread was conceived from listening to relapsing Alcoholics, both in meetings and here who live in denial and how best to offer support or more frequently as it were, making the decision to move on because the Alcoholic is not ready for change.

The message of hope is contained in the first paragraph of Chapter Five and it boils down to honesty; grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. I am no longer amazed at how this message is lost in the self delusions of Alcoholics who choose not to accept the responsibility of changing from the old to the new.

"My higher power demands I concentrate on my problem, which is me. If I do that I have plenty of work to do without taking on others' shortcomings. When I start to believe it's my responsibility to direct the lives of those around me because I've been blessed enough to string together some days of sobriety I'm right back where I started at day one, trying to direct the lives and world around me to suit my will."

This post I have referenced is unsettling to me and stands in the way of what the Big Book teaches me concerning a new life. The God of my understanding never demands and He definitely wants me focused on self only to the point that I am learning and growing to be a service to others. Working the Steps is a progression of lessons to better living and how to carry the message to the still suffering Alcoholic. I do not know how many miss this basic tenet. Some Alcoholics who get stuck with the comfort of using dishonesty also stop growing when fear compells them to stay selfish. Sadly, I see Alcoholics hide behind facades of false modesty and shrink away from the necessity that a new life is about a complete change of their personhood so that they are responsibily equipped to continue moving forward to help others.

[AW2486]

Just a few things I thought of while reading this thread..

From the Grapevine - I am responsible. When anyone, anywhere, reaches out for help, I want the hand of A.A. always to be there. And for that: I am responsible.

Fifth tradition long form - Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity having but one primary purpose—that of carrying its message to the alcoholic who still suffers - taken from book alcoholics anonymous 3rd Ed.

[lizw]

After my experience with my friend who died, if I knew then, what I knew now, I would've not said anything on the phone to him, except perhaps I am too busy to talk or told him to ring AA in the country he was in.

Then when he came back I would have gone to his house and said most things I said to him on the phone to his face. Then (of course) I would've offered to take him to a meeting.

I wouldn't have done the above because I thought it would have got him sober either but because then I would've been carrying the AA message, not reacting to my own hurt ego since he lied to me, as alcoholics do.

These days if I have friends in the program who are drinking, newcomers or not and they ask for my help, generally I give it. And they don't even have to be my friends either. If that woman who I tune out to at the meeting asked me for help I would help her but I wouldn't buy into her denial that she has a 'small drinking problem' and that her 'life problems' are more pressing.

And of course I am helping her because it helps me, but I dunno if anyone here has been reversed 12th stepped but that is when the relapser carries their message to us, i.e that as an alcoholic it is okay for me to drink and I can control it.

I think it is a real skill to learn how to say what you mean, without being mean, and telling a relapser drinking may kill them, is a good example. It may sound mean but it is the truth.

[Tazman53]

Helping the still suffering alcoholic...... what does the BB say?

Suppose now you are making your second visit to a man. He has read this volume and says he is prepared to go through with the Twelve Steps of the program of recovery. Having had the experience yourself, you can give him much practical advice. Let him know you are available if he wishes to make a decision and tell his story, but do not insist upon it if he prefers to consult someone else.

In reading the above in the BB, it is time to help when they are ready to help them selfs by working the program, by taking the steps.

He may be broke and homeless. If he is, you might try to help him about getting a job, or give him a little financial assistance. But you should not deprive your family or creditors of money they should have. Perhaps you will want to take the man into your home for a few days. But be sure you use discretion. Be certain he will be welcomed by your family, and that he is not trying to impose upon you for money, connections, or shelter. Permit that and you only harm him. You will be making it possible for him to be insincere. You may be aiding in his destruction rather than his recovery.

When helping another I keep in mind in particular what I bolded above. If a guy calls me and asks for a ride to a meeting I will be there in a heart beat, if coming home from a meeting he ask to stop at the store to get something, no sweat, if he wants to talk for hours about program, no problem.

If he is not drinking I will feed them, if he is not finished drinking I won't, why feed a man still drinking when all he is going to gain is more money in his pocket to buy booze?

If he needs shelter and is not drinking, he is welcome in my home for a while, but not as a crash pad, but as a place to lay his head and seek recovery and employment if he is ready. If he needs shelter and is still drinking, I will not help him continue to drink and have a warm bed, I am hurting him more then helping him..... the idea is to help him find a bottom low enough to where he is willing to do what ever it takes.

For the type of alcoholic who is able and willing to get well, little charity, in the ordinary sense of the word, is need or wanted. The men who cry for money and shelter before conquering alcohol, are on the wrong track. Yet we do go to great extremes to provide each other with these very things, when such action is warranted. This may seem inconsistent, but we think it is not.

Giving a man who wants money and shelter before sobriety is hurting them, sharing ones ES&H with them and getting them to meetings if they want is the help they need, they need to see that when they are willing to do what ever it takes and get sober they can regain on their own what they seek with assistance if needed.

It is not the matter of giving that is in question, but when and how to give. That often makes the difference between failure and success. The minute we put our work on a service plane, the alcoholic commences to rely upon our assistance rather than upon God. He clamors for this or that, claiming he cannot master alcohol until his material needs are cared for. Nonsense. Some of us have taken very hard knocks to learn this truth: Job or no job -- wife or no wife -- we simply do not stop drinking so long as we place dependence upon other people ahead of dependence on God.

"we simply do not stop drinking so long as we place dependence upon other people ahead of dependence on God." To me this is saying that as long as a still suffering alcoholic is depending upon us or others, we are in essence preventing them from getting sober by keeping them dependent upon us, and not God!

[RufusACanal]

Good work Taz, your Big Book work is inspiring.The answers are in the Book, yet many want to write their own.

[LogCabin]

Originally Posted by navysteve

The Big Book says different " It may be worth a bad case of jitters if you get a full knowledge of your condition. (PG 32)"

I agree that to minimize drinking is never a good idea, but, for many it unfortunately does seem to be a means to reaching that great moment of truth. And who are any of us to determine when that is for anyone?

Each path is different. Sometimes it comes to us quickly, and sometimes not. Hopefully a person learns it at all. I think the message is clear that it does not always happen the same way for everyone.

The only requirement is a "DESIRE" to stop drinking. And I can understand why people have no tolerance for the slow learners. But I sure am thankful for the ones who are on the front lines and have compassion and understanding. The newcomer has so many resentments, and strong feelings of anger. Kinda sad to see old timers who can't let go of anger and finger-pointing, and think they know it all.

My Dad is a perfect example. He will be celebrating 30 years of sobrity next February. And yet he still has so many issues of blaming, and being judgmental. But I see he tries, and he certainly helped to saved my butt. But his ideas don't always work for me. I had to find my own AA way, along with many other resources outside of AA. I use them all, and keep them in my "recovery belt" as I call it.