Step Question For Experienced AA'ers!

[sobergirl77]

I have two questions for people who have been in the AA program and worked the steps...

Tomorrow (Tuesday), I am going to be completing my 4th step with a sponsor. I have already done all the paperwork and did the thinking/praying... the resentments, fears and sex inventory. So I will be going over it with this woman tomorrow who doesn't sponsor me, but sponsors several other women.

Now, I have two questions. First of all, I have been unable to stay sober for more than 10 to 13 days at a time since I entered the program. My last "relapse" was very recent. I want very badly to get through the steps because so many people say that it removes the mental obsession. Nothing so far has removed it for me - calling women, going to 2 meetings a day, praying, service work, etc. Nothing. So I am hoping that the promise of the steps will work.

Question one is, am I qualified in doing my 4th step if I keep relapsing? I have done my first three steps repeatedly. I ask for God's will in my life most mornings.

Secondly, if I don't trust my current sponsor with my 4th or 5th step (and I have other sponsors picked out for those steps, not my own), should I just let go of my current sponsor? She has gossiped about me behind my back to other women and hasn't been consistent in much that she has said. So obviously I don't trust her with my innermost emotional information and/or life history.

Thanks in advance for you guys' thoughts on this!

[nandm]

Originally Posted by sobergirl77

I
Question one is, am I qualified in doing my 4th step if I keep relapsing? I have done my first three steps repeatedly. I ask for God's will in my life most mornings.

Yes, you are qualified to do a 4th Step. Anyone can work the Steps. In fact working them may be what keeps you from relapsing. In the early days of AA people worked through the Steps promptly sometimes within a matter of days.

Secondly, if I don't trust my current sponsor with my 4th or 5th step (and I have other sponsors picked out for those steps, not my own), should I just let go of my current sponsor? She has gossiped about me behind my back to other women and hasn't been consistent in much that she has said. So obviously I don't trust her with my innermost emotional information and/or life history.

IMHO you can change sponsors at any time. A sponsor is supposed to be someone who can guide you in the program of AA and working the Steps. If you can not trust the person or if they do not have the qualities you are seeking then you have every right to change and find someone who does. You can also do a 5th Step with someone other than your sponsor if you choose. The BB doesn't say you have to do it with your sponsor. Just another human being and your HP. I do feel that you should not delay doing your 5th Step because you do not trust your current sponsor.

It is great you are seeking information and working on applying the program to your life. There is some good information in the Step Study section of this forum you might check out. Some good stuff from Sandy Beach on each of the Steps that are well worth the listen. Keep up the great work.

[laurie6781]

Question one is, am I qualified in doing my 4th step if I keep relapsing? I have done my first three steps repeatedly. I ask for God's will in my life most mornings.

I'm going to disagree completely with Nandm. Step 1 is the base we build our recovery on. If that base is built in sand instead of concrete, well then there we go relapsing.

If I were your sponsor, you would be working on Step 1. Sounds to me like you haven't ACCEPTED to the very core of your being that your are POWERLESS OVER ALCOHOL and that YOUR LIFE HAS BECOME UNMANAGEABLE.

That being said.....................nope I do not believe you are ready for step 4.

If in fact your 'sponsor' has been 'gossiping' about you behind your back, then first I would suggest you find a new sponsor for your own sake, life, and sobriety. Then start work with a NEW sponsor on step 1.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but hey those steps are numbered in order for a reason. We do not go on to the next step until we have COMPLETED, ACCEPTED, etc the first step!

J M H O but it's what work for this old broad. To me based on what you stated:

I have been unable to stay sober for more than 10 to 13 days at a time since I entered the program. My last "relapse" was very recent.

You have to get Step 1, down to the core of your being, and the above says you are not yet convinced.

Love and hugs,

[nandm]

Originally Posted by laurie6781

I'm going to disagree completely with Nandm. Step 1 is the base we build our recovery on. If that base is built in sand instead of concrete, well then there we go relapsing.

,

You bring up a good point. We read the OP completely different. What I understood was the the first 3 Steps had been worked and she was now working on her 4th Step. It appears you read it as the OP was starting on the 4th as the first 3 had been repeatedly done during prior relapses.

I do completely agree with Laurie. If you have not worked the first three steps this time around then there is no point in working the 4th Step. If you have worked the first 3 this time around (as I understood your post to say) then going on to your 4th is a positive thing to do as delaying the Steps is not going to get you sober and help you to stop relapsing. The Steps and working them is key to sobriety but you have to work the Steps to the best of your ability as they are something that you will continually apply to every aspect of your life as you continue your sobriety.

Thank you Laurie for helping me see the post from a different perspective.

[Cathy31]

Hi Sobergirl
Some great insights here...I mentioned on another thread that in my view you should be going right back to step 1. I agree with Laurie that you need that solid foundation. I understand that you say that you have 'worked' the first 3 steps...but you gotta put in some more work there, go back to the beginning. You need to 'get' step 1 before moving on...what helped me was using the NA step guide it really made it sooo clear for me!
I would also get a new sponsor, pronto! And go back to the start - not to say your 4th step is wasted it's not, you will pick it up once you got step one- someone once said it's the only step you gotta do perfectly. I agree with this. Once I got step 1, I did not relapse again.
Keep going!!!
Cathy31
x

[philosoffy]

I agree with all and to clarify. If since you stopped drinking this time round. You have accepted The first and second step wholeheartedly and you have applied the third step then don't hang around, do the next steps now. It's a program of action not procrastination.

Best wishes and God bless

[lizw]

There's a lot of information in what you said.

I have done a 4th and 5th step with a sponsor at least every 2nd year I have been sober and also went through a phases of doing an annual one too. I have been sober nearly ten years now.

I have also heard a lot of 5th steps of people I've sponsored and probably wouldn't hear the 5th of someone I didn't. I say this for 2 reasons. One of the purposes of this step is to allow someone to know us. Not the us, we like to present to the world.

I know that my sponsor brings up things I have told her from time to time, when yet again I am getting myself into the same situations or am expereincing the same feelings towards another person.

I also do the same with people I sponsor. It's amazing how my of the same situations plague us in soberity.

So it would be helpful to have the person you're going to do it with remain a part of your soberity.

I've also sponsored people who like yourself have done a 4th and 5th but have continued to relapse. I don't think there is any one quick fix, that will magically make you sober. The only way is through and if you are having serious doubts about your sponsor, I'd probably be addressing those too.

PM me if you want to talk further.

[Signal30]

Originally Posted by sobergirl77

I want very badly to get through the steps because so many people say that it removes the mental obsession. Nothing so far has removed it for me - calling women, going to 2 meetings a day, praying, service work, etc. Nothing. So I am hoping that the promise of the steps will work.

Question one is, am I qualified in doing my 4th step if I keep relapsing? I have done my first three steps repeatedly. I ask for God's will in my life most mornings.

Patience. This is a action that most of us alcoholics had to work to acheive.

You say that nothing has worked for you. I hate to answer questions with questions, but have you done step 3? Have you turned yourself over to your Higher Power? Are you still trying to do things your way? And finally, have you surrendered your self will? There are two things you must surrender to really receive with the AA program promises. The first is surrendering to alcohol. The second is surrendering your self will.

If you have no definate answers then lets backtrack one more to Step Two. Do you beleive that a power grater than yourself can restore you to sanity?


Tom

[sobergirl77]

Thanks for all the responses! Although I am so disappointed. Because somehow I knew I'd get the "you aren't done" and "You haven't taken your 1st step completely yet" answers. Trust me, I've heard them in a few meetings. I've had someone tell me to go out, get "full" of alcohol then come back when I am ready and willing.

But.. I AM ready and willing! Alcohol has beaten me down so bad that I can't imagine going lower. Being told stuff like this is so heartbreaking and leaves me full of fear and confusion. What do I need to do to "get full" - die from alcohol poisoning??!! I have come close on more than one occasion. I know to my very core that I am DONE and desperately want to get off this merry go round.

I truly believe that I have accepted the fact that I am completely powerless over alcohol. My life is completely unmanageable when I am drinking. I was spiritually DEAD when I walked through those AA doors. (I truly believe I am no longer spiritually dead since taking my 2nd and 3rd step, though).

And as for step 2, I have a very strong belief in the God of the Bible (I am Christian) and truly believe He can help me stay sober. I have spent a lot of time on my knees praying in the past month or so since doing my official step 3 with my sponsor. I turn my will and life over to Him every morning, except on a couple of rare occasions in the past month.

I am fine for a few days. Then that darn mental obsession begins. It is so sneaky... it grabs me. Sometimes I get on my knees and pray, and it goes away. Then sometimes it comes back. I guess my problem is that I don't call anyone. (Twice when I have called someone, it hasn't helped, and I still end up relapsing). So instead I think it over... and over... then I lose the game and head to the liquor store.

I well and truly am done with alcohol and am so hurt when people say I am NOT done with it. What more do I need to do? Get on my death bed? The promise is that the mental obsession fades after the 9th step. I've taken the steps 1-3 nearly every day, read the big book and now the Bible daily. I am praying with everything I've got and believing in the promises. Something has got to give, and I'm hoping that it's getting the steps done. I literally cannot take any more!

I apologize if I come off defensive, but I don't know what else to do at this point but continue to work the steps. My sponsor has all but given up on me, has better things to do with her time than talk to me (and no, I never call her while I am drunk).

I don't expect you all to tell me what I want to hear, but I truly and well know for a fact that I cannot ever take another drink of alcohol. Ever. I am powerless over the terrible obsession. King Alcohol has administered a terrible beating onto me more than once and has humbled me.

Do you all still think I shouldn't do my step 4 tomorrow?

By the way, I am editing this already way too long post to add that I have only been going to AA for 3 months as of the 16th of July. I walked in desperate, but on nobody's wishes but my own, up to about a liter of vodka per day, couldn't find a rehab so I "weaned" myself for two weeks - had a thread here, in fact - no DUI's, still have my home computer business, no jail, etc. I came in desperate and looking to stop drinking. Still am.

[Tazman53]

Secondly, if I don't trust my current sponsor with my 4th or 5th step

Just my opinion, but it is time to get a new sponsor!!!

should I just let go of my current sponsor?

IMHO ASAP

She has gossiped about me behind my back to other women and hasn't been consistent in much that she has said. So obviously I don't trust her with my innermost emotional information and/or life history.

This says it all, who ever you are working your 4th/5th step with if you trust her is the one you should ask to be your sponsor.

If you are constantly relapsing in my opinion you need to get step one through 3 down pat, struggling is one thing after doing steps 1-3, but relapsing is another.

Step one, if you get it, is learning that if you touch a hot stove you are going to get the heck burnt out of your hand!!!! So you are going to stop touching the hot stove and getting burnt!!!! In other words you will stop relapsing because you know you are powerless over alcohol.

I know you do not want to go back to step one, but if you are still relapsing then get a new sponsor and work on step one until you and your new sponsor agree that you get it.

I am not being mean, I am suggesting this out of love.

If you have really accepted that the hot stove is going to burn your hand EVERY time you touch it, then you will stop touching it and be ready to beleive that a Power greater then you can restore you to sanity from the insanity that caused you to keep touching the hot stove. Once you really become willing to believe that, then you will be ready to turn your will and your life over to the CARE of that HP. At this point and only at this point will you be ready to continue to work the steps.

[dgillz]

Please see nandm's thread called "Thoughts on surrender". I do not think you have surrendered yet. If you had, there would be no comments like:

So instead I think it over... and over... then I lose the game and head to the liquor store.

I truly believe that I have accepted the fact that I am completely powerless over alcohol.

You should KNOW. This may sound like nit-picking on my part, but this is an important distinction.

Most of all do not get discouraged. Many of us went through exactly what you are going through now. And when someone in AA tells you something that hurts, many times, like Taz said, it is out of love.

4th step? Not with that person! Get a new sponsor that you truly admire as a person, and in the meantime focus on step 1. When you and the new sponsor get acquainted she'll tell you when you are ready for the 4th step.

You didn't get up to a bottle a day all at once, you aren't going to do the steps all at once either. Patience, hang in there, it will get better.

[NOMOMERLOTMAMMA]

You got some really good responses Girl..I hope you too them in the light that they were given..with love and wanting to see you through this!

I agree with Taz, do not hesitate to get another sponsor! If you don't trust the one you have now, of course you aren't going to call her when the thoughts of drinking come up! Maybe, possibly, this new sponsor will give you some tools to use..help you to see things in a different light.

I"ll share a bit of my experience with my sponsee. She had another one prior to me, and even though she officially "did" Step One..we did it again. She is now at Step Three and doing well.

Put Step 4 away for now..ask that woman to sponsor you!

Please let us know what happens!

[Signal30]

I never stopped believing in God, even in my most depressed hard drinking days.


However...


It took me a while in the program to believe that God could restore me to sanity. Simply giving God all the negative emotions and defects of character and it actually working. It got to a point where I was like you. I was frustrated that AA was working for others but it wasn't working for me.

I didn't really get the Third Step until I did a real thorough 4th and 5th step with my sponsor. And it was my second 4th and 5th Step (or should I say 10th Step), where I actually got it.

I read out loud my long and lengthy 4th Step Inventory to my sponsor and after I was done he only asked one question. He said, "Do you really believe in God?" The question kind of pissed me off because I saw it as being kind of smarta$$ in nature, but he was asking a honest question. He went back and showed me multiple examples in my inventory where I was still trying to handle everything my, and only my way. I wasn't letting God in.

It's one thing to believe in God. But what's really, really, really, (add one million more really's) important is that you have FAITH in God. To trust your Higher Power that he or she or whatever source you see as your Higher Power, can and will take that "bondage of self" that is said in the 3rd Step Prayer.


This is my opinion, but the most important action you must do in the program of Alcoholics Anonymous is to surrender your self will, THE MOST IMPORTANT!!!!!

You have to let God in.


Tom

[RufusACanal]

I am so proud of you SG. Keep going, head high! Do not drink today and keep believing you are not alone.

[justanothrdrunk]

My initial reaction to your 4th step question was that, no, you're not "qualified" due to the relapsing recently.

But after some thought, and without knowing you at all, I can't really make that judgement. It would depend on some factors and wouldn't be a decision I could make unless I was your sponsor and had worked with you.

As far as your sponsor goes, I can't imagine what it would be like to work with a sponsor that I didn't trust. I would certainly be looking for another one if it were me.

[sugErspun]

Hey SG, I don't know if you should do your fourth without being sober through 1-3, but I did notice something in your posts that I have a thought on.


"My life is completely unmanageable when I am drinking."

May I propose that your life is unmanageable even when you have not been drinking? I know mine was - I was worse without alcohol than I was with it. A lose-lose situation at best. It was important for me to realize that it wasn't the alcohol that made life unmanageable - it was my sickened spirit, my 'disconnect' I had with the world around me.

This sunk in at the first step - and I was not moved forward until there was this 'Ah-Ha!' moment..I knew alcohol itself as a substance was not the source of my problems. My alcoholism is so much more than the act of drinking.

At the second step - I set aside my conception of God as I was convinced that I didn't know a thing about God, at the same time being convinced that God could help. I honestly came to believe it was possible - I didn't know what or how, but I thought something could happen.

At the third step - I made a decision to go for this thing. To do what those before me had done. I did not know what the future held for me, but I felt that it wasn't for me to know, I was not going to run the show from here out. I had no expectations at this point - only action (I was a couple of months sober when I started writing my fourth). I turned my will and my life over to something that I had no hope of understanding - but something that I believed would be revealed to me as was necessary. It was confusing and comforting at the same time - my spirit was calmed, but I could go nuts trying to intellectualize the whole thing. So I started writing my fourth with no expectation that it was going to do anything for me.

I think you are placing an expectation on the fourth step - that it will relieve the mental obsession. That may or may not be true - but in my experience, any time I place expectations on something, I am going to be disappointed. It's the expectation itself that is just another manifestation of my self will.

[bob_sapp]

I have wanted to drink many times, but I didn't because I have done step 3. My will is to drink because I am an alkie, but since I turned my will over I have never had another sip. I truly believe that is the diamond core of what has kept me sober. If you have true faith, I know it is invincible.

[Peter]

Good thread, good responses, not much I can add.

[Mercedes1]

I personally was presented with both sides to this question. My sponsor as does most in the AA meetings I attend enforce "slow"...and that is what I have done. I have recently started attending a step w/shop however that teaches or "presents" the steps 90min each week that has a complete different view..they teach from the BIG BOOK and they are dead set that each newcommer should do the steps ASAP. Not wait. going to meetngs and not drinking doesn't do it according to them. Staying on the 1st step for ages is meaningless..to them.

If you read Bill's story he did all steps practically while he was less than 3 days sober in the hospital (with Ebby). Although they consisted primarily of 4 steps (later expanded to 12). He did however get "tempted" soon after at a hotel ...almost went to the bar and decided instead to call people to help. That was the turning point for him..putting his steps to action. So,,,to me, his obsession was not relieved until he started helping others which to me was not so much helping others to relieve the obsession but doing the next right thing...

I relapsed 2 weeks ago after 9.5months. Prior that that I had 7.5 months and relapsed. I did the 1-12 and still relapsed. So I am trying it now a different way..so we will see.

I guess my only comment is you need to WORK the steps not think about them. When I relapsed last I had the recurring "next right thing to do"..and I ignored it..for me that was call an AA person. I did everything else and it worked until the real obsession kicked in. So I had the tool just ignored it.

[Tommyh]

I say do it,
it just might be what you need,as it appears,you are not staying sober as things are now,so I say do it,worst case scenario is you will drink.
I heard a speaker talk one night.He was a atheist.He skipped the 3rd step,did the 4th and 5th and then he had a awakening and was able to do the 3rd.He had came to believe...today he is sober almost 20 yrs
so much for "conventional AA"
as far as trusting your sponsor,if you are ever going to trust her,give her something to trust with,give her your past-trust don`t pop up from no where,it has to be earned-give her a chance to earn it as some day a newcomer will do the same with you



the only ones you have to satisfy is your mind and your God-do what you feel you have to do

[sobergirl77]

Thanks again for your input...

I am still going to do my 4th step today. I have stayed sober the past couple of days through faith.

I have gotten on my knees begging for surrender and acceptance and felt peace. I do not know how else to surrender. I have prayed to be shown, even.

But I am ready to find out my character defects now and get my fears out in the open... so I am going to do this 4th step today. Back in the beginning days (and before) in AA, people did their steps almost immediately.

I know some of you think I'm doomed to fail because you think I haven't done my first three steps, but I personally know I have. Without a doubt. I'm ready for the 4th!

I'll update here later on how it went... if anyone even wants to know.

[anvilhead]

lotta good stuff here..........sobergirl you posted:
I am fine for a few days. Then that darn mental obsession begins. It is so sneaky... it grabs me. Sometimes I get on my knees and pray, and it goes away. Then sometimes it comes back. I guess my problem is that I don't call anyone. (Twice when I have called someone, it hasn't helped, and I still end up relapsing). So instead I think it over... and over... then I lose the game and head to the liquor store.

I well and truly am done with alcohol and am so hurt when people say I am NOT done with it. What more do I need to do? Get on my death bed? The promise is that the mental obsession fades after the 9th step. I've taken the steps 1-3 nearly every day, read the big book and now the Bible daily. I am praying with everything I've got and believing in the promises. Something has got to give, and I'm hoping that it's getting the steps done. I literally cannot take any more!

you're still caught up in the cement mixer hon. it's not that other people are SAYING you aren't done, your actions demonstrate that. if you are still drinking, you can't possibly be DONE drinking. you have yet to build up the resolve, learn enough tools and USE them, to adequately deal with the urges and obsessions that are part of early recovery. YOU have to learn what to do INSTEAD of giving in and hitting the liquor store.

trying to work thru the steps without completing the very first crucial step is going to be a frustrating and ultimately defeating undertaking....unless and until you make the firm commitment that you will not drink NO MATTER WHAT, your journey hasn't really started. until you are willing to do WHATEVER IT TAKES not to drink today (which ever DAY that happens to be...), you are still holding out the reservation that you CAN drink.

i know it's hard. dang, how many hundreds of thousands of people are struggling just like you at this very moment? i'd suggest take a deep breath.....look step one square in teh face and ask yourself if you truly acknowledge, admit and accept that you can no longer drink alcohol at all, period and that you are right here right now willing to do everything in your power to get sober and stay sober. then i'd ditch the sponsor. i'd go straight to a meeting, i'd park my butt in a chair and i'd listen. and when they asked if there are newcomers i'd raise my hand. and i'd get numbers on a schedule. and i'd stay after the meeting and help pick up chairs and empty coffee cups. and i'd do the same the next day. i'd hit 90 in 90, i wouldn't take my eyes or my mind off of step ONE....i'd pray to my HP, i'd read the Big Book, i'd get a notebook and i'd start writing out my first step. the first step is kind of like a road map in reverse...instead of trying to figure out how to get from where we are NOW, the first step helps us backtrack and find out how the hell we got HERE. it's not a drunkalogue, it's a story. it's your story.

and that end of the 90 days, staying sober one day at a time, with a good solid first step in my notebook, THEN i'd go to a potential sponsor and say i think i'm ready, will you work with me?

[anvilhead]

kinda makes ya wonder why you bothered asking.....but best of luck anyway

[lizw]

I just wanted to add a comment about my thoughts on the first step.

While I can understand when other members say (about others who relapse) 'they haven't completely done the first step' I wonder how anyone can be expected to come to AA and then just accept they are powerless over alcohol? If one gets told they have cancer, the doc just doesn't say, you must accept this now. Acceptance is a process. I am not saying this as a justifaction for drinking either. : )

I couldn't tell you when I accepted, I was an alcoholic or that I even have. I do accept that I can't drink like normal people. And that drinking will eventually kill me, if I start again. My acceptance of being an alcoholic appears to me to be directly linked with the amount of effort I put into my program. Lots of meetings, lots of praying, lots of reading, lots of service, lots of sponsor and sponsees = I am an alcoholic. And when I don't do a lot of that stuff, I start to think the world has given me a bad deal.

The BB suggests the spiritual awakening we expereince in AA can be of the educational variety, that happens over time rather than a instant change in the brain, and I believe this to be true for step 1 also. For some it takes time and for others it happens instantly BUT one thing I can say for certain about relapsing and relapsers, in my own observations, is that the ones who stop relapsing get busy in AA. They do, what I do when I am at my best, lots of meetings, do lots at meetings (putting out chairs etc..) help lots of people (in and out of AA), pray lots, read lots, spend a lot of time with their sponsor, give lots of rides to meetings. This list goes on and on.

I believe that when they take their hands off themselves and their own lives, God/HP takes care of them. Then next thing they know 6 months has flown by and while they maybe crazy (aren't we all depending on the day) they're sober because they have taken the actions which usually follow acceptance.... You see, we can't think our way into acceptance but we can certainly act our way into it.

My 1st sponsor use to tell me the big book does not have a chapter called, into thinking or into feeling. It's called 'Into Action'. And we when are taking all this action, we have no time for drinking....

Sometimes I just go to say a few things, then I do this big long rant. So there you go. That must be this weeks one.

[dgillz]

Originally Posted by sobergirl77

I'll update here later on how it went... if anyone even wants to know.

Sobergirl,

Just because most of us have a different opinion than you do does not mean we do not care. How did you come to the conclusion doubting that we would care?