Should AA change? - Page 2 - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

frstnm · 07-11-2008, 04:07 PM

I think the basics should remain the same but keeping current and open minded is also a good thing.

bob_sapp · 07-11-2008, 04:25 PM

I just follow the BB, if I don't like what they do at a meeting I find a different one. If someone is an idiot, I stop listening to them. People say all kinds crazy stuff. I don't care if someone else doesn't want to work the steps or doesn't measure up the standards I set for my own sobriety. They alone will experience the fruits of their labors, and I will still be sober either way. You need to follow the BB and have a burning desire to stay sober at all costs including death, because that is what drugs and alcohol will do to me ("go to any lengths"). I do my service to the person still suffering and if you want to talk to me, you know where I am, but until you are ready my words will fall on deaf ears.

**nandm** · 07-11-2008, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Signal30

But even today alcoholism is still as cunning, baffling, and powerful. Alcoholism is just as deadly today as it was when man first discovered the fermentation process discovering alcohol.

AA does in fact work if you work it. Sorry, there is no effective Big Book Cilff notes, or super duper book that effectively runs you through the 12 steps in 12 days or your money back, (you can keep the weather radio as a gift...lol.)

You put in the work, you get the results. Listen, ask questions, and follow directions and you WILL experience what the 9th Step Promises proclaims.

Tom

Well put Tom.

So I guess that means my copy of "AA For Dummies" isn't a solution?

Sorry just had to add that one to your easier, softer way list.

**nandm** · 07-11-2008, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommyk

I think I am the one that needs to change, not AA.

So very true, Tommy. Thanks

LosingmyMisery · 07-11-2008, 07:58 PM

When I first came into the program, I thought the language in the BB and the thinking was archaic and thought it should be updated. Since then, I've come to the conclusion, why should AA change to suit my needs? That is really what I wanted. I wanted a program that suited my language and my way of thinking. I think many of us expect to mold the program to meet our wants and needs. If we all take away a piece and replace it with what we think is a more suitable way, what will be left? Alcoholism is a selfish disease and my thinking was selfish. I think the reason many people leave the program, in the beginning, is because they are not willing to do the work. They are not ready to commit to the program. Sure, there are plenty of things that could turn a person off, but if you really want to quit, you will go to any lengths to achieve sobriety. That has been my experience.

lizw · 07-11-2008, 08:38 PM

I think everyone believes 'AA' to be a different thing to them. I.e. AA is meetings. AA is the big book. AA is the 12 steps. AA was founded in the Oxford Group. AA is GSO. AA is one alkie helping another. AA is the Big Book.

The AA program is shown by the triangle - service, recovery, unity.
I personally don't think this will ever change, nor does it need too.

I think our fellowship (which is different to the actual program) has changed and will continue too. One of the old timers in my area keeps joking about how he is waiting for the younger people to start an AA rap meeting. Another example of fellowship change is how we can now come online (thanks SR) and share our ESH.

I would also define 'sayings' such as 'take what you like and leave the rest' (which is actually an Al Anon saying) or 'it works if you work at it' as things that have come in from the fellowship and reflect societys acceptance and/or awareness of alcoholism and/or addiction. I.e number of treatment centres compared to way back in the day

I was going to do a service rant and say if anything kills AA it will be lack of people willing to service, but I think the 3 - recovery, unity and service -all lead into each other. I recall someone saying that if one of these is taken out of the equation, there is no balance. I.e a two legged chair can't stand but a 3 legged one can.

I also think some of Bill W's writings focused more on the structure of AA (as a whole) rather than 'on the program' or 'on the fellowship,' but I may be mistaken about that???? If anyone knows, comment please.....

Signal30 · 07-11-2008, 11:31 PM

Well nandm I suppose that is you use the book AA for dummies along with the BB then I figure that may be ok.

And yet you can still keep the weather radio as a gift.

Tom

bballdad · 07-12-2008, 03:43 AM

the main thing that needs changing is me.
3 major changes I have seen in AA over the past 20 years in my perspective

1-I have seen a lot of AA`s grow more rigid.That I do not like.Being flexible,to bend but not break is a key for me.Being too rigid prevents me from growing.

2-Seems like people want to talk about the first 4 chapters too much.Keep sponsee`s in the problem too long,I need to get into the solution as fast as I can.I knew I was a alcoholic and could not manage my own life when I came ,no doubt. My first sponsor basically started me off at Chapter 5,How It Works.
I was sober 10 years before I went back and thourghly analyzed the first 4 chapters and the Dr`s Opinion.
3-too many retreats and conferences in the USA where they get a few alcoholics to explain the Big Book to everyone and not enough conferences and retreats where we focus on carrying the message to the alcoholics who still suffer who cannot get to meetngs and do not know about AA..and a better way of life,remember,this is about saving lives

bballdad · 07-12-2008, 04:36 AM

I would like to add to # 3 of my post above,if you can get a copy of Jack P`s,(from N.Hollywood,Ca-Jack got sober in the 40`s) talk on 11/03/91 about how H & I got started in California in the early days,it is well worth the time to listen to it,I think.He gives a good account on how they carried the message and had only read the book once.A lot of difference between AA today and AA then in some respects.

dgillz · 07-12-2008, 08:56 AM

Bballdad,

What does H&I stand for? Also where do you get copies of things like this?

bballdad · 07-12-2008, 09:54 AM

hospitals and institutions

a friend from california loaned me a tape of Jack.I could copy it and send it to you.
Sometimes you can find really good free stuff at xa speakers.com also
pm me if you want a copy

ananda · 07-12-2008, 09:41 PM

ballad - post 33....wow...I really like what you had to share on that...could totally relate! Thanks!

jimhere · 07-13-2008, 12:10 AM

History has proven that farther a movement gets from its founding (chronologicaly), the more watered down it gets. It becomes divided into factions. Witness how Christianity has devolved into what it is now. It has become something that even its adherents can't agree on what it should be.

The statement in the book about unity being one of AA's remarkable assets is not true anymore.

AW2486 · 07-13-2008, 09:08 AM

AA recovery for me is the actions we all have to take that are laid out in the Big Book. Most of the actions are hard and uncomfortable but are necessary.

Where I see the change coming from is the unwillingness to do the action that is necessary. That turns into half measures. Pretty soon it turns into a mindset that you can just pick and choose and leave the rest, and it continues on and on to other things that others have posted here.

ananda · 07-13-2008, 09:38 AM

Once you write it down it becomes "unchangeable" and people start to bicker. The only constant is change and it is the members currently expereinceing the joy of AA and sobriety that offer the true example of AA in action and guide me on my journey. Yet I too benifit from the big book. Just like to include the examples I see daily.

Tazman53 · 07-14-2008, 05:12 AM

Quote:

However, I am still trying to figure out where I fit in with the fellowship

Gravity if you are an alcoholic you fit.

tkdan · 07-16-2008, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Where I see the change coming from is the unwillingness to do the action that is necessary. That turns into half measures.

I believe that is were the sponsor comes in. I know if I were left alone to do the steps without someone guiding me to be thorough I would cut corners. Yeah I'm sure I would seek an easier softer way. I may not always like what my sponsor suggests but I would be lost without his guidance. I know this may be a little off subject but sometimes I need to reaffirm this so I do not forget it.

ananda · 07-16-2008, 11:52 AM

today my answer to the quesiton is still yes....good thread to read for me

dgillz · 07-17-2008, 11:07 AM

Has anyone else noticed that the percatages add up to more than 100%?

Sheryl85 · 07-17-2008, 11:43 AM

Not until you brought it to my attention.

Since this was done by a bunch of alcoholics it only reinforces the adage a friend of mine says, "We over do or under do everything we try to do!"

sugErspun · 07-17-2008, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgillz

Has anyone else noticed that the percatages add up to more than 100%?

Yeah - there are 44 total votes divided by 42 uique voters. It is using the number of voters as the denomitor as opposed to the number of unique votes....just under 105% using those calculations.

dgillz · 07-17-2008, 07:23 PM

The first 3 categories add up to exactly 100%. The "No opinion; undecided; unsure" category is the extra %.

View Poll Results: Should AA change?
Definately, AA needs to keep up with times therefor needs to change	5	10.20%
The basics such as the 12 Steps/12 Traditions should not be changed.	23	46.94%
No way. Change dilutes the program causing it to be ineffective	21	42.86%
No opinion; undecided; unsure; etc....	2	4.08%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

07-11-2008, 07:58 PM	#30 (permalink)
LosingmyMisery Winter Wonderland Join Date: May 2007 Location: The Forest through the trees Posts: 419	When I first came into the program, I thought the language in the BB and the thinking was archaic and thought it should be updated. Since then, I've come to the conclusion, why should AA change to suit my needs? That is really what I wanted. I wanted a program that suited my language and my way of thinking. I think many of us expect to mold the program to meet our wants and needs. If we all take away a piece and replace it with what we think is a more suitable way, what will be left? Alcoholism is a selfish disease and my thinking was selfish. I think the reason many people leave the program, in the beginning, is because they are not willing to do the work. They are not ready to commit to the program. Sure, there are plenty of things that could turn a person off, but if you really want to quit, you will go to any lengths to achieve sobriety. That has been my experience. __________________ *“This is my life. It is my one time to be me. I want to experience every good thing.” - Maya Angelou*

07-11-2008, 08:38 PM	#31 (permalink)
lizw God's Kid Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 1,310	The question is rather broad because 'AA' is diff for everyone. I think everyone believes 'AA' to be a different thing to them. I.e. AA is meetings. AA is the big book. AA is the 12 steps. AA was founded in the Oxford Group. AA is GSO. AA is one alkie helping another. AA is the Big Book. The AA program is shown by the triangle - service, recovery, unity. I personally don't think this will ever change, nor does it need too. I think our fellowship (which is different to the actual program) has changed and will continue too. One of the old timers in my area keeps joking about how he is waiting for the younger people to start an AA rap meeting. Another example of fellowship change is how we can now come online (thanks SR) and share our ESH. I would also define 'sayings' such as 'take what you like and leave the rest' (which is actually an Al Anon saying) or 'it works if you work at it' as things that have come in from the fellowship and reflect societys acceptance and/or awareness of alcoholism and/or addiction. I.e number of treatment centres compared to way back in the day I was going to do a service rant and say if anything kills AA it will be lack of people willing to service, but I think the 3 - recovery, unity and service -all lead into each other. I recall someone saying that if one of these is taken out of the equation, there is no balance. I.e a two legged chair can't stand but a 3 legged one can. I also think some of Bill W's writings focused more on the structure of AA (as a whole) rather than 'on the program' or 'on the fellowship,' but I may be mistaken about that???? If anyone knows, comment please..... __________________ ....blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the children of God.

07-12-2008, 03:43 AM	#33 (permalink)
bballdad Is my work solid so far? Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: N.C. Posts: 1,155	the main thing that needs changing is me. 3 major changes I have seen in AA over the past 20 years in my perspective 1-I have seen a lot of AA`s grow more rigid.That I do not like.Being flexible,to bend but not break is a key for me.Being too rigid prevents me from growing. 2-Seems like people want to talk about the first 4 chapters too much.Keep sponsee`s in the problem too long,I need to get into the solution as fast as I can.I knew I was a alcoholic and could not manage my own life when I came ,no doubt. My first sponsor basically started me off at Chapter 5,How It Works. I was sober 10 years before I went back and thourghly analyzed the first 4 chapters and the Dr`s Opinion. 3-too many retreats and conferences in the USA where they get a few alcoholics to explain the Big Book to everyone and not enough conferences and retreats where we focus on carrying the message to the alcoholics who still suffer who cannot get to meetngs and do not know about AA..and a better way of life,remember,this is about saving lives __________________ give freely of what you find and join us

07-12-2008, 04:36 AM	#34 (permalink)
bballdad Is my work solid so far? Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: N.C. Posts: 1,155	I would like to add to # 3 of my post above,if you can get a copy of Jack P`s,(from N.Hollywood,Ca-Jack got sober in the 40`s) talk on 11/03/91 about how H & I got started in California in the early days,it is well worth the time to listen to it,I think.He gives a good account on how they carried the message and had only read the book once.A lot of difference between AA today and AA then in some respects. __________________ give freely of what you find and join us

07-11-2008, 04:07 PM	#26 (permalink)
frstnm Im not crazy and neither am I Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: My place in (M)Assachusetts Posts: 1,212	I think the basics should remain the same but keeping current and open minded is also a good thing.

07-11-2008, 04:25 PM	#27 (permalink)
bob_sapp Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: witness protection program Posts: 282	I just follow the BB, if I don't like what they do at a meeting I find a different one. If someone is an idiot, I stop listening to them. People say all kinds crazy stuff. I don't care if someone else doesn't want to work the steps or doesn't measure up the standards I set for my own sobriety. They alone will experience the fruits of their labors, and I will still be sober either way. You need to follow the BB and have a burning desire to stay sober at all costs including death, because that is what drugs and alcohol will do to me ("go to any lengths"). I do my service to the person still suffering and if you want to talk to me, you know where I am, but until you are ready my words will fall on deaf ears.

07-11-2008, 11:31 PM	#32 (permalink)
Signal30 Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 983	Well nandm I suppose that is you use the book AA for dummies along with the BB then I figure that may be ok. And yet you can still keep the weather radio as a gift. Tom

07-12-2008, 08:56 AM	#35 (permalink)
dgillz Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Mobile, AL Posts: 1,078	Bballdad, What does H&I stand for? Also where do you get copies of things like this? __________________ If the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, then all your problems look like nails....

07-12-2008, 09:54 AM	#36 (permalink)
bballdad Is my work solid so far? Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: N.C. Posts: 1,155	hospitals and institutions a friend from california loaned me a tape of Jack.I could copy it and send it to you. Sometimes you can find really good free stuff at xa speakers.com also pm me if you want a copy __________________ give freely of what you find and join us

07-12-2008, 09:41 PM	#37 (permalink)
ananda Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,537	ballad - post 33....wow...I really like what you had to share on that...could totally relate! Thanks!

07-13-2008, 12:10 AM	#38 (permalink)
jimhere Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 1,314	History has proven that farther a movement gets from its founding (chronologicaly), the more watered down it gets. It becomes divided into factions. Witness how Christianity has devolved into what it is now. It has become something that even its adherents can't agree on what it should be. The statement in the book about unity being one of AA's remarkable assets is not true anymore.

07-13-2008, 09:08 AM	#39 (permalink)
AW2486 Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 326	AA recovery for me is the actions we all have to take that are laid out in the Big Book. Most of the actions are hard and uncomfortable but are necessary. Where I see the change coming from is the unwillingness to do the action that is necessary. That turns into half measures. Pretty soon it turns into a mindset that you can just pick and choose and leave the rest, and it continues on and on to other things that others have posted here.

07-13-2008, 09:38 AM	#40 (permalink)
ananda Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,537	Once you write it down it becomes "unchangeable" and people start to bicker. The only constant is change and it is the members currently expereinceing the joy of AA and sobriety that offer the true example of AA in action and guide me on my journey. Yet I too benifit from the big book. Just like to include the examples I see daily.

07-16-2008, 11:52 AM	#43 (permalink)
ananda Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,537	today my answer to the quesiton is still yes....good thread to read for me

07-17-2008, 11:07 AM	#44 (permalink)
dgillz Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Mobile, AL Posts: 1,078	Has anyone else noticed that the percatages add up to more than 100%? __________________ If the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, then all your problems look like nails....

07-17-2008, 11:43 AM	#45 (permalink)
Sheryl85 '55 Classic Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Waco, TX Posts: 585	Not until you brought it to my attention. Since this was done by a bunch of alcoholics it only reinforces the adage a friend of mine says, "We over do or under do everything we try to do!" __________________ "Temper is a quality that at a critical moment brings out the best in steel and worst in people." - William Grohse NOTE: All Big Book quotes are from the First Edition of the Big Book

07-17-2008, 07:23 PM	#47 (permalink)
dgillz Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Mobile, AL Posts: 1,078	The first 3 categories add up to exactly 100%. The "No opinion; undecided; unsure" category is the extra %. __________________ If the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, then all your problems look like nails....