More on swearing. Principal or personality? Will you call it?

[liveweyerd]

No, controversial topics are often interesting and educational.
I object to the personal insults, disrepect and bashing, as I stated.
Even though many of them are veiled, they appear clear to me.
A proper debate is of a subject matter and does not allow personal dignity to become part of the subject matter, to clarify...attacking the dignity and disrespecting others.

Sort of like issues versus "dirty politics"?
Am I clear as mud? LOL

live

[ananda]

yeah...I was confused and went back and re-read the thread....so I see what is being refered to....but it realy isn't any different from all the other threads...there are always those who will use sharing as an opportunity to be critical of people's differences.

So I choose to try not to suck into that sort of thing as alot of people will also really try to share and figure out things via these threads.

Thanks all

[liveweyerd]

No, controversy can be interesting and educational.
My objection is as stated, that the dignity and respect of a proper discussion or debate has been violated, and in places made personal.

Might I liken it to issues versus "dirty politics"?
Am I clear as mud now?

Technically, the etymology of the word profane was coined as a theological/sociological term and had nothing to do with foul language. But can I just keep it simple and note that there have been insults and fouls in the thread and encourage us to raise our standards in relating to one another with dignity, please?

live

[liveweyerd]

oops, I asked my hubs to read this as he is my sounding board and he did not see my reply, therefore there is a nearly duplicate post.

At the risk of complicating these issues further, I find myself wondering what constitutes "verbal" abuse via keyboard?

Just food for thought.

live

[RufusACanal]

... much can be forgiven for your excellent Roger Waters quote. I appreciate your thoughtful response(s). I write and speak frequently before I think.

[freya]

Originally Posted by liveweyerd

No, controversial topics are often interesting and educational.

Perhaps it depends on what is interesting to the person reading? Not everyone finds the same things interesting, and people can find different things interesting at different times, depending on what is going on their lives. In my opinion, to make the blanket statement that something in which other people clearly are interested is "not interesting" and that what is being said by those people is not "educational" is an insult and a "bash" to anyone who has taken the time to post thoughtfully in this thread.

I personally find this topic of some interest at the moment both because of the more abstract rhetorical issues involved (those kind of things tend to interest me in general) and because just last week a woman with whom I had had a fairly long conversation after a meeting the week before felt she had to reapproach me and apologize for having sworn (once!) during our previous conversation. While I was very appreciative of the fact that she was self-aware enough to have noticed that she did something apparently out-of-line with her personal values and honest enough and concerned enough of my opinion to come back to me and apologize, it really was not at all an issue for me and I had, in fact, hardly noticed it because it was, in my opinion, perfectly appropriate given her feelings about the issue we had been discussing at the time.

Anyway, it was interesting to me to have her bring it up, and it got me to thinking about the different ways I've seen this issue handled -- or totally ignored -- at meetings I've been to. So, it was interesting to see people talking about it here...and, when something is kinda in the back of my mind like that, I do find it interesting and educational to see what other people are sayng about it.....

I guess if people were talking about something that I didn't find interesting or didn't care to be "educated" about I would probably not bother reading a thread about it.

Originally Posted by liveweyerd

I object to the personal insults, disrepect and bashing, as I stated.
Even though many of them are veiled, they appear clear to me.
A proper debate is of a subject matter and does not allow personal dignity to become part of the subject matter, to clarify...attacking the dignity and disrespecting others.

In my experience when the subject matter under discussion is a particular human behavior, it is not possible to separate that behavior from the people who engage in it because a behavior does not exist in and of itself, separately from those who engage in it. A behavior is what it is...saying that a certain behavior is positive or negative or that it is related to, tends to manifest in connection with, or seems to be caused by certain positive or negative factors, situations, circumstances or conditions is just making a statement of fact. The fact that any given individual does or does not engage in that behavior -- whether it is positive or negative -- does not imply any overall judgement on his or her intrinsic dignity and value as a human being. And, in my opinion, to try to intimidate people from discussing a particular behavior because certain individuals who engage in it might not like what is being said and might choose to interpret what is being said as a personal attack is to issue an open invitation to all manner of censorship and silencing.

freya

[liveweyerd]

LMAO.......I'd jump the net to shake hands, but this old lady would fall on her hard old head again!
Thank YOU!

[liveweyerd]

posting at the same time...the above was to Rufus.

Freya, I was interested and enjoy different viewpoints, perhaps I did not state myself clearly. There is certainly no intention to intimidate in any of my posts. I could consider that an assumption, a wrong one and somewhat insulting.

Peace be with you,
live

[freya]

Originally Posted by liveweyerd

posting at the same time...the above was to Rufus.

No problem -- I defintely had assumed your previous post was not a repsonse to me!!!!!

Originally Posted by liveweyerd

Freya, I was interested and enjoy different viewpoints, perhaps I did not state myself clearly. There is certainly no intention to intimidate in any of my posts. I could consider that an assumption, a wrong one and somewhat insulting.

Peace be with you,
live

Thank you for clarifying. I'll admit that I don't spend a lot of time on-line, so I may be way off on this, but, based on what I've seen on the few discussion boards I do post on once in awhile, I have to say that from what I can tell, it doesn't get much more "intimidating" than having someone enter a thread for the first time with a comment like: "I propose this thread be closed" (not that I personally am at all intimidated by stuff like that -- obviously LOL!!! -- but I do find that many people seem to be). But, since I don't know you at all, and see that you clearly post out of a very feelings-based place and are also very concerned about the feelings of others, I will certainly take you at your word that you did not mean to try to silence anyone.

freya

[liveweyerd]

Thanks!

Great, now we can hear what others' think and hope we haven't distracted them much.

I could not agree with you more on the issues of freedom of speech and censorship!

live

[freya]

Originally Posted by liveweyerd

At the risk of complicating these issues further, I find myself wondering what constitutes "verbal" abuse via keyboard?
live

BTW, this is a really great question -- why don't you start a thread about it????? I'd be very interested in what people have to say / how people feel about this.

freya

[CarolD]

Ah well...
After this thread was reported ...
other Forum Leaders agreed with me
that there is no reason to close it at this time.

Please use PM for personal disagreements
Thank You

[RufusACanal]

...and at no extra cost, you too can have this wonderful thread on CD or DVD !!!

Simply use the hyperlink below!

www.toleranceandloveiscool.com

[liveweyerd]

Lmao

[Sheryl85]

Originally Posted by lizw

I thought the 'to swear or not to swear' thread was so interesting, I thought I'd ask everyone if they swearing in meetings is a personality issue or is 'not swearing' a principal?

I may have worded this using bad england too, so if someone wants to phrase it better go for your life.

But our (AA) 12th tradition does tell us to place principals before personalities...

Personally I think it is a personality issue and liken it to to maybe christians making ref to Jesus in their sharing a lot, however that being said the whole christian thing may be covered by the tradition that says AA is not affliated with any other group, cause etc...

Maybe I could say I think swearing in mtgs is a prefference thing, making it a personality issue rather than a principal.

I like reading others thoughts on this kind of stuff, we are all each others teachers and all that - there is never a right or wrong answer. So what do you think?

Getting back to the original question, it is hard to say. I’m not sure if it has all that much to do with personality as much as it could be a current environmental reflection. Take me for example. Before I started working for my current employer, I used to work in what I kiddingly refer to as “the real world!” I worked around mechanics, truck drivers, and cops. I tended to pick up the language of many of those that I was around and since I was also a workaholic, I was around it longer than most folks. When I started frequenting the bars my use of colorful metaphors seemed to increase as well. I didn’t even realize I was using words that were considered offensive. It had become a habit.

Times change and so can we. It wasn’t so much a principle that caused me to change. It was more a case of being “socialized.” When I came into the program, I started trying to act like the lady I wanted to become. Using the “F” word just didn’t fit that image real well. And then when I got into the occupation where I am today . . . well, let’s just say that I work in a “Profanity Free Zone.” That doesn’t mean I don’t rip off with a string of the ol’ rancid from time to time (away from work of course), but it certainly isn’t something that frequents my conversations now days. Many people coming in to these rooms are just like I was. It is part of how they have been living. They have to have time to be socialized. (It helps when I try to remember that Love and Tolerance is our code in AA.) Anyway, many of the meetings here take place in churches and just that atmosphere alone seems to take care of most of the expletives from being used. That and most of the meetings also have the request to refrain from using profanity built in to their foremats. But for the most part people seem to adhere to the request. If someone slips up and tattoos their comments with four letter words, they might be reminded not to use that kind of language (usually by there sponsors), but I can't remember anyone being asked to leave the meeting because it (yet).

That’s just my take on the subject.

[justanothrdrunk]

There's a time and place for everything. Is an AA meeting an appropriate place for profanity? In general, I think so, so long as it doesn't go against the group conscious.

My home group is in a church, and the church has asked that we, "use appropriate language in and around the church." Definitely a reasonable request IMHO.

Profanity doesn't bother me in most situations and certainly not in AA meetings. I'll let one slip now and again at inappropriate times. I suspect we all do.

I don't know. This seems like a silly topic to me. I don't think I've ever really given it any thought. And now that I have, I don't understand the debate. Are we getting into the morality of profanity here or is it more about causing unecessary offense to others?

Maybe I'm just missing the point entirely.

[ananda]

there is great value in learning the forms of whatever groups we belong to. But it is important to remember that in other places (like other countries) words with no real impact to most of us might be truley offensive to others.

language is important and has an impact, but when dealing with other people I have to remember that just because they come from a different place and put different meanings on the words and how speach should be done doesn't mean they are wrong, less than or anything else.

[RufusACanal]

"Each small candle lights a corner of the dark,

When the wheel of pain stops turning,

And the branding iron stops burning,

When the children can be children,

When the desperados weaken,

When the tide rolls into greet them,

And the natural law of science,

Greets the humble and the mighty,

And a billion candles burning,

Lights the dark side of every human mind"

[lizw]

I have been reading through the thread today and I am like FAR OUT! Nothing like getting a bunch of alkies to offer their ideas/opinions on a 'delicate' subject.

While this has nothing to do with swearing but is probably is to do with abuse, my sponsor told me that when AA started in my country it was common at conscience meetings for the guys to start thumping each other....

One (who lives in the South Island, NZ is made up of 2 Islands, North and South) in particular was told not to come back and is NZ's longest standing Loner. He is a lovely chap. His story gets a lot of laughs when he tells it.

I want to add again that I personally don't mind swearing in meetings and tend to do it myself when I am tired or emotional. I also beleive it is a personality thing rather than a principal (hope I used the right principal there.)

It's a good reminder that 'god wants us to keep on feet firmly planted on the ground'. We're all only human eh?



PS Who wants to start a thread regarding the use non confrence approved literature vrs confrence approved literature?