Relapse & the steps. POLL

[Tazman53]

Well I just wanted to see if my experience in regards to relapses in my area is the same as other folks.

In the alcoholism forum someone stated:

I listened to people who had been attending meetings for years and continuously pick up there white chip...I was baffled. They came to aa, utilized the support group, worked the steps but drank anyway

I know for a fact in my area that people who have worked the steps with a sponsor are not chronic relapsers. Yes there are people who have worked the steps and relapsed, but in my area they are few and far between and none of them are chronic relapsers.

Either my area is an anomoly of AA or where this person is at is an anomoly of AA.

Please answer the poll to where I can determine if my area of the country is an anomoly or not.

You can answer yes to more then one question!!!!

[ananda]

Taz, you know i think some of this is about focus...we tend to see what we want to see and not see what we don't want to see....also, some meetings are not very open to relaspsers...the door is always open, but the physical door can be open and the emotional, mind etc. can be closed. So which meetings I attend does make a difference in what i will see as well.

Just some input

[miss communicat]

Hi Taz,

Interesting poll. I started to answer it, but then stopped because I am not in a position to determine who has or has not "worked the steps entirely". It simply is not possible for me to know the entirety of another person's inner growth.

I suppose it also feels as if I'd have to be so intimate with these others as to know their inventories, which I cannot.

All the rest is wild conjecture or speculation on my part, and it would feel counterproductive to my own program to look this way towards my fellows.

I get that you are raising the poll for the purposes of raising more food for thought, so, this is my contribution.

Good luck. i will be curious to see how it goes..

[Stormy1119]

Being still somewhat of a newcomer, I have no idea who has worked all 12 steps and who has not.

I do know that I've heard from many people that their first time in AA, they did not get involved in AA, did not get a sponsor, and did not work the steps.. many of these people had 9m-1year.. but ended up going back out b/c they were not working the steps and did not have a sponsor.

Probably at least 1/4 of the group I go to have been in treatment 5 or more times, but I have no idea how far any of them got on the steps, or how far they currently are.

[justanothrdrunk]

First, I'm an anal nit. And that part of me needs to know how you define, "entirely," and "chronic relapser."

In the past, I had worked all 12 steps with a sponsor and had relapsed. Did I work them entirely? I did all 12, to the best of my ability at the time. And I relapsed. Was I a chronic relapser? Not sure.

When it comes to working the steps, I've heard two schools of thought. One being that many (if not all steps) need only be done once. This is the minority in my experience, but I've met those who do this. The other is that you never stop step work. I try to always be working on a step. At the moment, I'm working on another step 8.

I'm of the belief that step work is never finished. Thus, working the steps "entirely" isn't possible. My sponsor put it to me this way: whenever hearing of a relapse, ask that person what step they were working on at the time of the relapse. It's a trick question. They weren't working on a step at the time. That was certainly true for me. Even though I had been through all 12 steps with a sponsor...

[Tazman53]

What I base my experience on the shares of those with long term sobriety the majority of them share of how the steps help them in life.

I also base it on those who relapse and come back.

Those who had worked the steps and relapsed have shared that they relapsed when they quit applying the steps in thier lifes, quit staying in touch with thier sponsors, lost conscience contact with thier higher power and quit going to meetings.

Many others who share after a relapse said they were going to work the steps because simply going to meetings had not kept them sober.

I have yet to hear a chronic relapser share that they had worked the steps over and over again, most of them share that they quit coming to meetings.

What I am basing my experience on is what I have heard shared, not simple speculation.

Does just working the steps assure long term sobriety? Not from what I have heard shared by those with long term sobriety.

[sugErspun]

I probably would have answered differently if the verb "work" was not used in the past tense.

I don't know many who have relapsed while actively working the steps - which for me is continous. When someone who had long-term sobriety (I think over 15 years) has returned to active alcoholism, usually they are the first to admit that they drifted away from the daily work, weren't working with newcomers.

Failure to continously enlarge or attempt to enlarge their spiritual lives...

[Sugah]

I didn't vote, either. I almost did - but I realized I could not answer with certainty about another person and his or her program. So, instead, I'll offer my opinion.

There are a few key words and phrases that were emphasized to me and that I emphasize to others I work. I believe they are the difference between a successful program and a half-measures program. They are:

Step 3: Made a decision...
This step is often given lip service, though the BB tells us to think well before taking it. Although I've seen folks ready to take steps one through three in an afternoon, I've also heard folks with five or six years since their last drink admit that they still have not committed to that decision. Without it, even if a searching and fearless moral inventory is committed to paper, even if it is shared with God and another human being, there's a log jam ahead.

Step 6: Were entirely ready...
I've come to see step six as the extension of step three. If I haven't made a decision, how can I possibly be entirely ready to have my moral inventory cleansed and re-arranged by my HP? There's some serious faith necessary in this step. I have to believe that my needs will be provided for in some other way than what I've been doing all these years.

Step 10: Continued...
This implies the circular nature of the steps. They don't end once formal step work ends. They have become part of my life - my guide for living. If I have taken this completely into my heart, I always have a tool in my hands (heart) to deal with what's in front of me, therefore - how is relapse possible?

Step 11: praying only for knowledge...
If the prayers I pray for myself are for any other reason than to make me a more useful and purposeful person (see the 7th step prayer), if my prayers become dominated with self-centeredness, then I'm not doing an 11th step. Any prayer is not an eleventh step. Those prayers for knowledge of God's will are 11th step prayers. And, remember - we're praying for knowledge, not a magic wink that will eliminate the need for our effort.

Step 12: spiritual awakening, the result of these steps, carry this message, practice these principles in all our affairs (lots here!)
If my thoughts and feelings are not different when I begin the 12th step (had a spiritual awakening, a psychic change), I need to look backward and make sure that I took all of the steps, not just gave them lip service. Then I need to ask myself: am I a different person outside the rooms than I am inside? If so, see above.

I personally could not imagine taking a drink today. If I started screening my calls, choosing not to take a newcomer call or avoid the corrections chair who needs someone to go to the jail or decide that my attendance at my home group is not important, I don't know how long that would be so. If I decided that telling a few lies to my family, friends or employer might be beneficial, I have a feeling it would start to dig at me. If I avoid prayer on a particularly troublesome situation in my life, preferring instead to barrel through it on my own will, I can't remain happy or serene for very long.

I've heard people say they were nonplussed, that they'd worked the steps and still relapsed, but if those folks give getting sober again another shot, they usually point to a step they glossed over or a time when complacency set it. If there's any reason that someone should maintain a sponsor-sponsee relationship beyond formal step work, it's to guard against these these things.

Sorry if this was a diversion from the original topic.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

[RufusACanal]

Originally Posted by ananda

Taz, you know i think some of this is about focus...we tend to see what we want to see and not see what we don't want to see....also, some meetings are not very open to relaspsers...the door is always open, but the physical door can be open and the emotional, mind etc. can be closed. So which meetings I attend does make a difference in what i will see as well.

Just some input

Excellent comments ananda. I am not truly open to those who are not done drinking and have to do as I did, repeat the experiment over and over. Why am I not open? This new life is the example and I am only the light of the path; I have no power, just the example of a new life. I cannot be the decisionamker for those who are insane and those who continue to drink or return to drinking are insane. Might I be more tolerant? Yes, though the man or woman who desires a new life sincerely will receive all I can provide. The Book tells us not to chase after those will not go to any lengths and I now no longer do so. God will lead me when I am unsure.

[tommyk]

I believe any human being is capable of having a relapse.

I just thank God every day I'm not one of them.

[RufusACanal]

Taz,

Where did the original comment come from?

[Sugah]

Originally Posted by RufusACanal

Taz,

Where did the original comment come from?

I'm not Taz, but how about "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path" -?

Peace & Love,
Sugah

[RufusACanal]

Thanks Sugah and too true. No, I was wondering for whatever reason Taz felt that this thread would better serve in the 12 Step Forum rather than the Alcoholism Forum. I would think that the ESH might help those new folks. No big deal, just a stray thought.

[mrhodes01]

I am a chronic relapser. I've been trying to stop drinking, off and on, for more than 10 years.

Last summer, I hit new bottoms and finally opened my mind to AA after years of pushing the solution away.

Yet, I've relapsed a number of times since becoming an AA guy. The first time, I stopped doing the steps and going to meetings. The second time, I stopped doing the steps and going to meetings. The third time...you get the picture. Coincidence? We think not

My experience is that I have to thoroughly follow this program and do more than I see others doing. If I don't act on that awareness, I'm in trouble. That has been proven to me over and over and over again.

[sugErspun]

Originally Posted by RufusACanal