Large vs. Small Meetings (Long Post)

[Signal30]

Yesterday I went to a Big Book meeting that I have frequented for the last few months. This meeting would be considered a large meeting of approximately 40 to 60+ on Wednesday's at 8PM. The way the meeting is set up is after the readings, announcements, anniversaries, and basket passing the group breaks up into two. Newcomers are invited to go upstairs and everyone else remains where they are. Both are BB meetings.

Like most large meetings, the intergroup rep speaks as well as the Grape Vine rep. Usually after all is said and done the actual BB meeting usually starts after about 10 to 15 minutes.

This time one of the members of the group brought her lap top with a projector connected to it and gave a presentation on where the money collected from the group was going. Five or six different graphs, as well as a presentation that went along with it, (pretty dedicated to her job). That took about 20 minutes, (8:20).

Then the Power Point presentation turned into a slide show of AA historical places in Akron (Founders Day was this past week end) and the conference that was there with it. After that was all said and done 15 more minutes passed (8:35).

After she was done with her presentation the intergroup rep made an announcement then the sub intergroup rep (whatever that is), and then the grapevine rep. After about 3 or 4 separate announcements after that it was now 8:42. (Could you see that I was checking my watch...lol.) Someone also announced that the meeting next week was going to be a group conscious meeting, (I'll get to this in a minute.)

Now it's 8:46PM!!! 46 minutes have now gone by before the meeting started. A 14 minute meeting.

Now, this is my opinion, do you think the newcomers or those newer to the program really care about seeing a picture of Bill W's. Coffee pot? I remember as a newcomer I was a little more concerned about how the others were staying sober. AA history became interesting a little later (for me at least.)

Another question. If they are dedicating the next meeting as a group conscious meeting, then why wouldn't they save the financial Power Point report for that meeting?

It's incidents like this that are why I prefer smaller meetings. At smaller meetings announcements don't take as long and group conscious meetings are held usually before or after the regular meeting. I'm a "keep it simple" guy and all the little "political positions" that I notice in large groups kinda erk me a little. To me I see all this as slightly straying from our primary purpose. Yes we all are self-supporting groups, but the foundation of AA is one alcoholic helping another alcoholic. It only takes two people to have a meeting. In small groups the political and financial talk is kept to a minimum. I once went to a meeting that had over 200 people, it was even worse then what I just previously described. It felt more like a convention then a meeting. On a good day the actual meeting itself lasted about 20 minutes.

But before you all see this post as a "half empty glass" rant, let me explain what God taught me that day.

Acceptance, patience, and gratitude. The meeting isn't all about me or what I think it should be like. Some members must like it like it is otherwise it probably wouldn't exist. I accept the way some groups hold there meetings. I just come into SR to gripe to you people..lol.

Patience. I learned patience (and some tolerance)while waiting 46 minutes for the meeting. The remaining 14 minutes of the meeting were good. During the presentation I started reading page 417 in the 4th edition about acceptance. The guy next to me looked over and started laughing, (I think we were on the same brain wave length.)

And finally gratitude. I'm grateful that I can recognize my own shortcomings (IE: this post). And am grateful that if I don't like this paticular meeting, I can always go to a smaller one that's actually closer to my house. I'm grateful for choices and variety of meetings.

Well, this is a long post. This isn't meant to start a debate, I'm just curious on what you think of large vs. small meetings,and the political and financial aspect of groups and if they can help and/or hurt a meetings primary purpose.

Tom

[jimhere]

My homegroup meeting is a large meeting, anywhere from 150 to 200 people. We save announcements for the last five minutes of the meeting. Announcements usually consist of the GSR announcing the business meeting on the last Tuesday of the month and the district meeting the second week of the month. The first week of the month an announcement is made concerning our group's treatment committment on the first Friday. Every week, our outing coordinator announces the group outing destination which happens the second Friday or Saturday of the month. There are few more from week to week, but it usually takes less than five minutes. We have a board that says "This Is What We Do" that lists other group activities.

As for newcomer's hearing about Bill's coffee pot, I don't think it will hurt them. They usually don't hear anything anyway, their heads are too noisy.

[bballdad]

Tom,I prefer smaller meetings.My home group usually has about 25-35 for our Tuesday nights Big Book study,but sometimes it reaches 45.
Any group business is done during group conscience meetings,which we hold after the meeting.We only hold them monthly and even sometimes we wait until we really need them.We may go 6 weeks.We just do not have that much business.Sometimes the group conscience meetings are open to anyone,sometimes closed to just home group members.

My favorite meeting is a small Monday night meeting 2 miles from my home.This Monday we had 9 people,and a total of about 145 yrs of sobriety.

[Signal30]

My homegroup meeting is on Mondays. It's usually about 20 people, but can flex to 40. When I first started going to my homegroup it was about 10 to 15 people. The room we have our meetings in is starting to get cramped once we reach over 20. I've mentioned at a group concious meeting that we were flirting with a fire hazard and a maximum occupancy violaton. I suggested moving to a bigger room in the building, and some liked the idea and some did not. I saw it as an issue of importance since a elderly lady almost died of heat exhaustion last year from a hot packed with people room. From the expierence I find it better to leave the whole "business" part of a AA group to those who are better at it. I don't make it a high priority to attend group concious meetings, unless there are issues that are important.

In my home group I'm the "media and coin Guy." I take a night's money and go buy coins, BB's, and other AA info for the group every few months. It's service work for the group, and it's not "politicky". I was asked to be the intergroup rep for the group and I turned it down. Maybe someday, who knows? Oh yeah God does.


Tom

[Tazman53]

Tom I am a meat and potatoes kind of guy, large and small meetings in my area do our business & group conscience after meetings. If that meeting was my first ever AA meeting........................... well I would have hoped that my butt was kicked bad enough to try another one later..... as a newcomer I would have left that meeting wondering what the heck the message was?

I prefer small meetings myself as long as there are a couple of old timers there, I love almost all of our old timers.

Just my opinion, but it seems to me that all meetings should keep tradition #5 in mind:

Five—Each group has but one primary purpose—to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

Business meetings and group consciences are important, but are they carrying the message to the alcoholic who STILL suffers? I think not, but who am I?

[laurie6781]

all the little "political positions" that I notice in large groups kinda erk me a little.

I too used to be 'irked' about the 'politics' in AA.

However, as I learned acceptance and tolerance I started to realize that it was another lesson on how to live in the big wide world. Taught me a lot about dealing with "office politics."

There was a reason you were at that meeting. You, and I and the rest of us may never know the reason, but there was one.

As to the newcomers......................................... ..........I know for myself, right from the getgo AA History was very interesting to me, and I have seen other newcomers really 'perk up' when someone mentions a part of our history.

Thank you for starting this thread Tom, it's a good reminder for me not to put expectations on others!

Love and hugs,

[jlo34]

Patience. I learned patience (and some tolerance)while waiting 46 minutes for the meeting. The remaining 14 minutes of the meeting were good. During the presentation I started reading page 417 in the 4th edition about acceptance. The guy next to me looked over and started laughing, (I think we were on the same brain wave length.)

I laughed when I read this Signal!!! I have had (and sometimes still do) to read this passage so many times....geez, it really should be embarrassing!!!

When I was getting sober, we didn't have a ton of meetings in our county like we do now. We had one morning meeting (M-F) and 1-2 evening meetings throughout the county per night. Our Friday and Sunday meeting were the largest and would hold 150-300 persons. Friday was a closed meeting and we'd literally have a 12&12 table, a non-smoking table, and then the rest would break down into 15-20 groups!!! Now we have 65+ meetings per week available and probably the largest group would be a "newer" Friday night meeting (which I go to). We generally have 40-80 people there. The location attracts many from other surrounding counties... Washtenaw, Monroe, and parts of Toledo, Ohio. It's really a neat mixture!

Our meetings vary but always we have a preamble, announcements (usually held to within 1-2 months of date), anniversaries, and some meetings do "How It Works" and some also do "The Promises". Usually lasts 10 minutes or so. This Friday group there isn't much of a time limit on. I have been there for 2+ hour meetings many times....

My home group, morning meeting is timed to strict adherence to 1 hour. It's also a gun club.....yeah, well we figure we should probably get the heck out of there....

As for the "show"...perhaps next time an announcement that before or after the meeting those interested could show up?!?!? Our groups generally have our business meetings either prior to or immediately following the meeting. Gosh, we probably would've taken the whole slide show and made a party out of it!!! What better reason than to gather and share in AA history!!! Us drunks would do anything for a "sober" party/gathering!!!! Other than having an actual meeting lasting 14ish minutes...sounds like there was a lot of great information!!!

Blessings,
Jen

[tommyk]

Patience, acceptance, tolerance.

I try to keep those words in mind during some meetings. It is difficult.

You are not alone.

[Sugah]

I'm full of opinions on this one, most of which I'll keep to myself. I'll offer this, however, for my own experience.

I got sober in a little town with four basic meetings per week (two groups, two meetings per). Very often, readings, announcements and general fooling around would go on until 8:30. These meetings weren't very well attended. At some point, I started to wander over the mountain to try some different meetings - and at one, I heard an announcement for the monthly district meeting.

I live in a rural, two-county district where folks have to drive a distance if they want to get to anything but their neighborhood meetings. I found out why my own hometown meetings weren't doing so well. Folks won't drive that far to put up with general housekeeping taking place within the meeting. Group conscience meetings before or after, anything not directly applicable to the general membership confined to same said, and district stuff confined to the district meeting - which I did begin to attend. That's where I got involved in service activities that my group, in its lengthy announcements, never mentioned were available.

I'm not saying it made me soberer, but I sure did appreciate having that fifteen or twenty extra minutes of meeting. Newcomers seemed to stick around longer, too.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

[Signal30]

Oh crap one other thing I forgot...

I'm grateful that I live in the same state that founded AA and Akron is only a few hours away.

I wasn't able to make it to founders day, but through my grumbling I was able to show interest in some of her pictures she was showing. One of the pictures was the founders and other AA members all wearing Zorro type masks (for anonymity) when they were on national television. That was pretty interesting. I'm a history buff myself, I just wasn't one at the time the pictures were being projected on the wall. I must admit I was already a tad salty when I came into the meeting.


Tom

[Signal30]

Different strokes for different folks. Some members getting deep into the business and politics part of AA is service work that kept them sober.

Like Taz, I'm a meat and taters guy. The "business" part of AA to me is step work, and helping others by carrying the message.

Tom

[jimhere]

Originally Posted by Tazman53

Tom I am a meat and potatoes kind of guy, large and small meetings in my area do our business & group conscience after meetings. If that meeting was my first ever AA meeting........................... well I would have hoped that my butt was kicked bad enough to try another one later..... as a newcomer I would have left that meeting wondering what the heck the message was?

I prefer small meetings myself as long as there are a couple of old timers there, I love almost all of our old timers.

Just my opinion, but it seems to me that all meetings should keep tradition #5 in mind:



Business meetings and group consciences are important, but are they carrying the message to the alcoholic who STILL suffers? I think not, but who am I?

All of the Traditions work together, not independantly of each other. They are interconnected and circular. Ultimately the come back to the first one. It is all about unity. If there is not an informed group conscience, how can there be unity? If there is not a common problem AND a common solution how can there be unity in the message that we carry. My group has an actual collective conscience about what that message is, how we arrive at that message-sponsorship, and how we are going to go about carrying that message. It is down on paper and distributed to all members. We do our business at business meetings with the assistance of our steering committee. We have a group conscience in the form of a group inventory every six months.

Speaking of meat and potatoes, our meeting is basic Big Book-based AA, We have real coffee cups and real people that pour the coffee. The meeting itself is simple-the chairperson selects and reads a passage from within the first 164 pages to serve as the topic. The chairperson doesn't speak, just reads and calls on people. Each person has five to seven minutes to share. The meeting is concise and to the point, almost everyone stays on topic. It is group conscience that we stand to share so that we can be heard. New group members don't get to share in the meeting until they have completed a Fifth Step with a sponsor from the group. New group members also cannot hold a service position in the group until they have sober and a group member for one year and have completed the steps with a sponsor. Our meeting is closed, with no exceptions. As you can see, our group and it's meeting is pretty structured and disciplined. Many in the local AA community don't like us, but we don't care-we end up with the ones who have tried middle-of-the-road AA and have found it lacking. Some have nearly died trying to find that easier, softer way. We have a good mix, but the ones that end up with us are usually the people who have been sober in AA dying of AA, that's right I said dying of AA doing everything in AA but AA.

Like us or not, if you come to our meeting, you will be acknowledged and made welcome. What you will see is an AA group doing what an AA group is supoosed to do. We offer only one thing. No frills, no making a ritual of the Ninth-Step promises and dangling them in front of the newcomer like a carrot, no coins (which aren't AA by the way), no monthly birthdays or "proud time, hell we don't even acknowledge yearly birthdays until the last Tuesday of the month, no announcing them every meeting like they are some kind of achievement. What we offer is recovery from alcoholism through a good solid sponsorship of the Twelve Steps. If any of you are ever in Seattle on a Tuesday evening, come and see us.

If there is not an informed group conscience, the group will eventually cease to exist. It may continue to meet, but it won't be an AA group.

As I said, I don't believe it will hurt the newcomer to hear about Traditions, and especially to see them in action within a well-functioning group. It certainly can't be as harmful as some of the bullshit that I hear in meetings.
Jim

[ananda]

OK you guys...I feel really blessed now. Our town has 5 groups and between them have 1 or 2 meetings a day. the groups are small. meeting sizes range from 3 to maybe 20 tops (except special events). So I see the great gift in this is that we are a small enough group (all 5 together) that we have all had to learn to get along and to accept different ways of doing things. We celebrated 60 years of aa in our town last october. all the groups participated and it was so neat to hear the history of how each group formed over a resentment! We have had our periods over the last 20 years of one group trying to "take over" another (group inventories, time and elderly statesmen got us through that). My home group use to have 8 meetings or so a week...but as new groups have developed we are down to 4.

I think i would be so lost in those meetings with 150-300...but i guess it's what your use to and has it's own blessings. I just love the way that the VERY different styles of meetings in our area are all combined in our primary purpose so that we attend each others meetings and sponsor across home groups and all that stuff...been great so far

and oh yeah...because we are a small comunity, the groups actually are careful to try and schedule meetings and events so that they are not in conflict with other groups meetings and events. Great to see AA in action!

Thanks all

[justanothrdrunk]

My home group has probably close to 500 on the phone list. Each meeting generally has anywhere from 200-300 folks in attendance.

We have a regularly scheduled "business meeting" that meets the first Monday of every month after the regularly scheduled meeting. All are welcome to attend.

The business meeting is where this sort of stuff is covered. It's also when all the service positions are appointed and anything else anyone would like to bring up about the meeting. It's not a group concious meeting though. There is a separate steering committee that will meet only as needed. So, if someone brings up something regarding the group concious, they do so at the business meeting. And then the business meeting decides if the steering committee needs to look deeper.

There is also a monthly treasuerer's report that is posted on the bulletin board so anyone at any time can have a look to see where the 7th trad funds go.

After typing this all out, it seems sort of complicated, but it's not. It seems to run very smoothly. The complicated nature of the business meetings and steering committee is (I think) necessary simply because there are so many people that attend the meeting. I would think it takes more to keep a very large meeting in order than a small one.

Also, this meeting has been around for more than 20 years I'm told. So we've had a lot of practice in getting it right. I like the way it's run.

[Tazman53]

If there is not an informed group conscience, how can there be unity?

I totally agree, in my area Home group members attend thier home groups group conscience after the meeting, we try and dedicate meeting time to AA's primary purpose.

As I said, I don't believe it will hurt the newcomer to hear about Traditions, and especially to see them in action within a well-functioning group. It certainly can't be as harmful as some of the bullshit that I hear in meetings.

No it won't hurt them, but when you came to your first meeting was 3/4 of the meeting dedicated to everything about AA except the message?

For this alcoholic when I started coming to AA I could have given a rats Patoot about an AA business meeting or an AA history lesson, I was looking for a solution to my drinking to where I did not wind up dead. I needed to hear the message!! I needed to hear as much of the message as I possibly could.

I did not know what a GSR, a GSO or what a business meeting was about and to be honest with you, when I first got sober I did not give a hoot about any of them.

Does that mean they are not important to AA imo? Absolutely not, they are crucial to AA existing, but none of that info helps a newcomer get or stay sober, the message is what saves lifes!!!!

The message is what saves lifes!!!!

Newcomer walks in to a meeting, he has heard that AA has a solution for his problem and the first 45 minutes are spent with what to a man searching for a solution to be a bunch of hooey!!! He gets up and leaves after 40 minutes stratching his head wondering how in the heck do these folks stay sober talking about business, making announcements, & learning AA history?

Remember being a newcomer? I wanted instant gratification!!!! I wanted the solution NOW, I did not want to wait 45 minutes for anything!!!

Now this is just my opinion, but it seems to me if we are living up to our primary purpose when it comes to meetings we sure should not wait 45 minutes before we start delivering the message!

Folks with some time in the program have a lot more patience then some poor SOB like I was when I started going to meeting, I needed a solution, I needed to hear peoples ES&H, not how much money was spent on Big Books, rent, & Coffee.

How many newcomers have got sober via business meetings?

LOL Man I am crazy as a bed bug or an outhouse rat!!! I keep thinking about that newcomer coming to his first meeting, heck I got it now, lets study some AA history!

Our Primary Purpose
Our 12th Step, carrying the message, is the basic service that the AA fellowship gives. This is our principal aim and the main reason for our existence. Therefore, AA is more than a set of principles. It is a society for alcoholics in action. We must carry the message, else we ourselves can whither and those who have not been given the truth may die"- Bill W. from "What is the Third Legacy AA Grapevine July 1955

[jimhere]

I attended my grand-sponsor's group in Denver one time. The format is that they talk about a step, a tradition, and a concept back to back for as long as it takes. If the newcomer comes and they are talking about a concept, it won't hurt the newcomer to hear that. One meeting a month is devoted to the group's business-the time is given to the GSR and Intergroup rep. I asked Don why they did that and he said that they do it because the group is part of AA and they want the newcomer to see that. It doesn't hurt them. If a person is done, it doesn't matter. If they are not done, it doesn't matter either.

Taz, you are right, the newcomers don't care about that stuff. Like I said, if they are like me, they won't really hear much anyway. But I'll tell you what, after alcohol beat me up, I was willing to sit through anything.

The message isn't always about the words. In a well run, healthy group, the newcomer will not only hear AA, but more importantly, he or she will SEE AA.

As for the Traditions within the group, they are about preserving and taking care of what have. If the sick alcoholic doesn't have a place to find a life saving message, he will whither and die. If the recovered alcoholic doesn't have a place to carry a life saving message, he will whither and die, just like Bill said. The group's conscience is part and parcel of that primary purpose.
Jim

[Tazman53]

Jim I see what you are saying, maybe I am still a short timer I am able to still think entirely like the newcomer I was a mere 21 months ago. I just found that the sooner the message was presented to me the quicker I was able to grasp it with out all of the BS that made it run and keep running.

Yes I called it BS because it was when I first got sober, once I started to think I stood a chance of staying sober was when those things were no longer BS.

I don't know, maybe I feel it is kinder to the newcomer to give him the message first and the rest later when he can understand it and not get even more messed up then he already is.

[sugErspun]

Ohhh can I relate. When I was inpatient one time - there was a regular friday night meeting held at their main meeting hall - around 500-700 people a week. 'Good' circuit speakers from all over the country.

The meeting started at 8pm - speaker did not go on until 9pm and had 45 minutes. The rest was announcements, cakes, and more announcements. I went back to this meeting in January to visit a friend who was there for treatment (you can visit at the open meeting as long as your AA - and I am 'alumni' anyhow) - I almost could not sit through it all.

Now - my home group is not too different than what Jim describes, though we are an 'open' meeting of AA. No preamble, no chapter 3 or chapter 5 - the leader announces that it is an open meeting and all are welcome- please limit sharing to Alcoholism and/or recovery through the 12 steps. Then the main speaker goes for 15 minutes. From that share, generally there is a topic or a feel to the meeting, the leader chooses people to speak - they get no more than 5 minutes, and yes there is a timer. There are no cakes, chips or anything of the sort. The last Wed of each month - the people who had birthdays during that month are the first to be called on for their 5 minutes - they can talk about their birthday or not. But it is acknowledged that they are X years sober this month. We do not clap for people when they speak, just move on to the next person, but we can thank them for their share if chosen to speak. Quiet respect.

The last 5 minutes are the long form of the seventh tradition and a short reading from the foreward to the second edition. Then about 2 minutes of general announcements and close. The meeting is 95% sharing - and I like it that way. Just a personal choice.

[jlo34]

Sure is neat hearing how other groups are run. I've gone to some other groups in the state of Michigan and most here are about the same. We've had some folks move or visit from other places and boy their meetings were run differently.

Most important thing....we're sober today...regardless of the differences, by the Grace of God, we are sober today!

Blessings,
Jen