AA relationship question

[miss communicat]

hi friends

Not so sure where exactly to post this; I have been straddling the fence between this forum and the friends + family of alcoholics, and decided to run it by y'all. I need your thoughts on this one.

I have a boyfriend, he is sober with 4+ years. I'd say he's got a strong, spiritual program, most days.

So, here's the deal: He is balking at the 4th step and is avoiding it. Has been for a year anyway. We've been to a 4th Step meeting together that met 4 weeks consecutively, and he talks like he wants to do it but then he doesn't.

I typically mind my own business, but .......now its in my sphere.

There has been a long-term family situation that STILL causes him deep distress and anger (ie: "excess baggage" in my book). Anger especially.
his mood just sizzles these days with this unresolved issue (even though outwardly he is respectful and very kind to me) and its starting to stress me out. Its scary actually because I feel like I'm with a building volcano.

Last evening, on the phone, he was so disturbed that he was vulgar and aggressive when talking about this other family member. Then, he wanted to come over for a visit to which I said "NO WAY". I have really no desire to ruin my mood, or babysit or coddle an adult who refuses to do his work.

I told him to "go deal with himself, and in fact, to resolve this issue" before he comes back to me.

What I feel like saying is to just do your darn 4th and 5th steps already, and that his life will be much smoother.

But I am not the guy's sponsor, he has one and they talk daily.
I'm not his therapist, I do that all day for work.

He was apparently devastated by my saying NO to him, and my telling him to deal with his family problem before being with me (emotionally drunk). He expected that I'd be a good AA buddy and comiserate with him.

So: Is it wrong to tell another AAer that its time to do their 4th step? Is it wrong to turn another AAer away because of his agitated emotional state in order to preserve your own serenity, even if he says he might drink?

I feel like putting the relationship on hold. I'm confused.

Any thoughts as to how to be both good to myself, and a supportive friend to someone in AA who is struggling with a chronic emotional problem?

detachment?
big book thumping?

[NOMOMERLOTMAMMA]

4 years is a long time. As this is affecting your relationship, I'd just tell em to do the darn 4th step already!!!!

[Sugah]

My husband and I have anniversary dates within a month of each other (his is a month before mine), same year. I was finished with my formal step work in 9-10 months. We started to date when we were both around a year & a half sober, and I met his sponsor - a guy who seemed very grounded in the BB and the steps, so I assumed my husband was on a similar step schedule as me - but I was wrong. He'd written his fourth step, but he "hadn't gotten around" to doing his 5th step. I didn't know this until after a whirlwind courtship that resulted in a marriage proposal in a very short period of time (Not something that I'd suggest to anyone - though it's worked for us. We celebrate our third anniversary next month). When I did find out that he hadn't done his 5th step, I never said, "You must do this." I shared with him the freedom I felt after completing 5-7 & getting on with the amends process. He had some of the same sort of issues that you're describing - and honestly, if he hadn't decided on his own to do something about it (like, duh, finishing those steps), I probably would have called off the wedding.

As many benefits as there are being in a relationship with someone who understands and speaks the same language, I think there are some potential pitfalls, too. One of them is meddling too much in the other's program. It's convenient to fall into a sort of sponsorship relationship, but I'm not his sponsor & he's not mine. There's a reason same-sex sponsorship is suggested - and not just to avoid romantic entanglements! Sometimes, it preserves them!!!

I think it's appropriate to share with him how much the steps helped you in similar difficulties, and I think it's appropriate to set boundaries regarding certain behaviors. I don't think it's appropriate to advise him in such a way that it sounds (to him) that you're trying to sponsor him. If he wants to be miserable with this, that's his choice. Doesn't give him the right to make you miserable. I think there's a fine line between sharing E, S & H with any alcoholic and coming across as dictating to him the way he should work his program.

I don't envy your position (knowing what it feels like), but I will say a prayer that it works out!

Peace & Love,
Sugah

[Rob B]

Originally Posted by miss communicat

I'd say he's got a strong, spiritual program, most days.

How is this possible? If the 3rd step is just a decision, and the 4th is a fearless moral inventory to face and be rid of that which blocks us. What kind of program is he working, if he hasn't actually done the work?

Miss C, I respect you and am not posting this to cause harm, I am genuinely curious as to what your partner is doing that constitutes a strong spiritual program, my take on it, sounds like he still suffers from untreated alcoholism. I would bring this up with him, if you are so inclined, you may be able to reach him more than anyone else can.

[miss communicat]

I appreciate all your responses.

Karen, thanks for the support!

Sugah, your expereience is a beacon for me.

Rob, you are helping me to ask the right questions.

Thanks again!

[serenityqueen]

I definately feel that if this is effecting your serenity, then you have to let him know that something has to change or some other changes are going to have to take place. I won't come right out and tell him that he needs to do his 4th Step, but let him know that he's gonna need to do something because his issues have now become YOURS.

God Bless & I'll Be Thinking About You,
Judy

[CarolD]

When anothers actions disturb you...I think you have the right
to voice your concerns...

While my experience is not as emotionally charged...

As you may remember...I can no longer drive.
My AA friends are great and keep me going to meetings.
L. is especially kind
A few months ago....she was having family difficulties
and stopped taking her Bi Polar meds.

Wow! she was no longer driving safely and was angry
depressed and manic. I did not want to be with her.

I told her to get back to balance and I would no
longer ride with her in her condition.
She listened and straightened out

Did I over step AA friendship?
Maybe. But this behavior was unacceptable to me.

Sounds as tho you are setting reasonable bounderies.
Mega Hugs....Prayers

[miss communicat]

you are all helping me so much. I was stewing in this all day and to hear your perspectives and what you would do is awesome!

wow~:ghug

[miss communicat]

Originally Posted by Sugah

I think it's appropriate to share with him how much the steps helped you in similar difficulties

I have offered my esh regarding how freeing steps 4-7 are, but, to be honest I have never had "similar difficulties" as his. His family situation is worlds different from mine in terms of violence, aggression and hostility. (and mine was no picnic)

I am stressed because I am not eager to be deeply involved with as Rob put it, untreated alcoholism. I would not say his disease goes untreated, but he holds himself back where I do not.

He is sober, involved in service, very humble, tries very hard to be deeply God centered, we pray together, and have a good relationship. Its just painful to be around his emotional pain and, yes, emotional immaturity.

more will be revealed~~~~

[best]

So that is what causes my mood swings when I talk about family? Thought you were talking about me for a moment. *LOL*
On to a 4th step again.....

4 years... Aside from the great boundaries you set...yes even telling him how a 4th step would help would be nice. A friend helping a friend...not an AAer helping an AAer by AA guidelines.
Just remember... all we can do is show them where the answers are. Each of us need to make our own choice of what to do with the info once we get it.

[miss communicat]

Originally Posted by best

even telling him how a 4th step would help would be nice. A friend helping a friend...

thanks best!!!!!

I would like to be nice, a good friend.

my evil twin wants to yell at him.

lol....

[tennis71]

Let me ask you this - how would you address this situation if your boyfriend was not in AA?

[Tazman53]

Miss C I have not been in the space you are in now so I have no experience to share on this, I wish I did.

Tennis brought out an excellent question:

how would you address this situation if your boyfriend was not in AA?

I would suggest speaking at length with your sponsor, praying, and keep in mind that you need to take care of your self first. If taking care of yourself means speaking to him and setting some boundaries so be it.

If you 2 are in a relationship there needs to be brutal honesty in both directions, I do have a lot of experience in a relationship with only one party trying to communicate and the other saying nothing........ it resulted in a divorce!!!!

[Music]

Originally Posted by miss communicat

I have a boyfriend, he is sober with 4+ years. I'd say he's got a strong, spiritual program, most days.

Hi Missy,
I struggled with the fourth step for a while in the beginning. My sponsor told me if I was struggling with the fourth, I needed to back up to the third. So, my answer to you is this. I question your boyfriend's "strong spiritual program" and would advise him to back up to the third step. Four years is way too long to be carrying around crap from the past. In my opinion, if he doesn't deal with this stuff soon, his sobriety is tenuous at best. If his behavior is upsetting to you, it's affecting your sobriety also, and it is your business to say something to him about it if you choose to stay in the relationship.

[Pinkcuda]

My Wife has been in the program for about 2 years and she is somewhere between steps 1 and 2. She's doing the Hazelden aproach with her Sponsor.
I personally think it's a crock, but it's none of my business.
Someone elses recovery isn't my concern.
That's what the "Anon" programs are all about. It's about what we have control over and what we don't have control over. One of the biggies that we can't control is other people.

[miss communicat]

Originally Posted by tennis71

Let me ask you this - how would you address this situation if your boyfriend was not in AA?

good question. I'd have no interest in him as a partner.As Sugah said above, its very bonding to share the language and lifestyle of real AA. It attracted me to him.

Now, its back to "to thine own self be true". I will put my own sobriety first. This includes not getting stressed out by someone else's unsober behaviour.

Have had good sponsor talks and also really good feedback here and I do appreciate the help, everyone!

[navysteve]

I have a boyfriend, he is sober with 4+ years. I'd say he's got a strong, spiritual program, most days.

"So, here's the deal: He is balking at the 4th step and is avoiding it. Has been for a year anyway. We've been to a 4th Step meeting together that met 4 weeks consecutively, and he talks like he wants to do it but then he doesn't."

I know its none of my business, and it has already been said, but this guy sounds stark raving sober, which is not pleasant. I applaud you for not coddling him. I balked at steps before and no the damage that it can cause. 4 years is a long time to wit to do a 4th step. The program was not intended for us to wait until we get around to working the steps. To say someone has a strong program who has balked at doing a 4th step is inaccurate ( no disrespect). The steps are the program, service work is great. meeting attendance is, well another thing altogether...
I know for me, I was no good in any relationship until I cleaned up the wreckage of my past. It would be selfish of me to bring my baggage to another and expect them to do my laundry for me.

"Any thoughts as to how to be both good to myself, and a supportive friend to someone in AA who is struggling with a chronic emotional problem?"

It sounds like you did a good job of not co-signing his BS. The tough part is being a supportive friend who is refusing the help. If you throw a life preserver to a drowning man who refuses to grab it when it is within reach, and they can see it, and know it will pull them to safety, what do you do???

[miss communicat]

Originally Posted by navysteve

If you throw a life preserver to a drowning man who refuses to grab it when it is within reach, and they can see it, and know it will pull them to safety, what do you do???

SOS (save own sobriety!)

[barb dwyer]

So: Is it wrong to tell another AAer that its time to do their 4th step? Is it wrong to turn another AAer away because of his agitated emotional state in order to preserve your own serenity, even if he says he might drink?

no.
wait.
heck, no.


Miss C -

Your PM's and posts have helped me so many times,
I can't even begin to remember them all.
We've had some good laughs as well ...
most of those I *can* remember.

Your dedication to your own staying in the SOLUTION
has inspired me more than once.

I *know* it gets tough when that 'other' aspect
comes in to it...
that 'what if he leaves me' aspect
we're raised to think we NEED in order to be complete women....
I cal it 'stand by your man' syndrome...

but when the water sets to boil -
it's our OWN sobriety we're protecting.
IT's so long a road to get to that place where we feel WORTHY
enough to say,
"I can't get this on me right now'
or
"Sorry to hear that - but - play wth it outside'
or whatever we need to say in order to keep our own
hard won sense of Self in tact.

What *I* read you saying is that
there's not so much forward movement any more.
That's a tough one.
Recovery is all about moving forward.

I know you are working a good, stable, strong program.

SO I'll just say an extra *prayer* and leave ya alone.

ok
maybe a too.

[navysteve]

This is a tough one. Women aren't the only ones who think they can "fix" someone. I have a cape, rusty armor and a three legged horse. I have tried too many times to fix others. It doesn't work. Sometimes by shielding otherse from the inevitable I deny them the gift of desperation.Some of us need to get there before we make that decision.

[Cathy31]

Great posts everyone, thank you! I've learned alot!

[lightseeker]

My RAH and I both are in recovery - but you would never recognize it as the same program. I struggled for a couple of years over his not working a 4th step. I had to spend a lot of time with my sponsor on that one. He is going on 3 years of sobriety and hasn't yet started his 8th step. I've finally let it go. I let it go verbally with him a while a ago but in my heart I carried it around and it bothered me (a lot). Recognized that my wanting him to do his steps was more about me wanting him to be more peaceful and easier to get along with - for me. As usual - a few of my character defects popped out - poor self care, denial, poor boundaries. Acck! Once I finally got it through my head that I care more about my sobriety than I do my marriage I knew that I was going to have to let his step work (or lack there of) go.

There are benefits to being in the program together but then it also can make it tough. His lack of step work has caused me to lean in heavier to the women in my meetings.

You sound really clear headed though and like you are handling things well. I definitely will offer the suggestion of working the steps when RAH asks my opinion about why his life is so unmanageable.

[SS234]

I was recently seeing a recovering alcoholic. He has been sober for 15 years (25 years old to now 40). We were seeing each other on and off for a year and a half. On and off because he couldn't be in a committed relationship. He admitted that he was going through a "selfish" time in his life. (he went through a divorce a few years before I met him - had been married for two years).

He is very active in AA - a few meetings per week. I read about the fourth step recently as I'm trying to understand his behavior. The inventory in the fourth step includes a section on sex - with whom/why (which includes selfishness).

Is it possible that someone can be sober for 15 years, going to AA meetings and still engage in selfish behaviors and feel no remorse (I thought no remorse). At one point he came back to try to be in a "normal" relationship but he ended that after a few weeks. I wonder if he can ever be in one . . .

[CarolD]

Hmmm...

I wonder if he can ever be in one . . .

If so...it would not be with me.
My serenity does not work well with dramantic rejections.

I do hope you are moving on

[BP44]

Anytime I am balking at anything between 2 and 12, it's about my truth in step 1. The 1,2,3 dance is a dangerous thing. I know from experience that it eventually pulls me out of the program and back to the drink. The illusion that all I need to do is just don't drink and go to meetings will ALWAYS make life so unpleasant for me that I will eventually get drunk. That being said, there's not much you can do about it other than the action you take for yourself. And don't kid yourself, the pain in his past and circumstances are absolutely no different from yours or mine. I don't care how violent, abusive he was towards his family or his family was toward him. It has no bearing on the promises of the process. And I believe you really do know this. My experience is that it is dangerous to try to justify not doing the work by saying..." this case is different because ______" Fill in the blank, I don't care how it plays out. The process of inventory is to find out who I'm not, and be rid of those things so that who I am can show up. I do not present the process of inventory as some arduous exercise in self flagellation. I look at it more like telling a kid, " If you clean out all the toys in your room, I'll take you down to the toy & hobby store and get you all new ones." The bottom line is that I have to ask myself one question about whether to follow through on my 3rd step decison.....drink whiskey or do inventory. If you're truth in step 1 is like mine, doing inventory is easy compared to what a glass of whiskey asks me to do. This question will work for your very worst amend as well. Make the amend or drink whiskey. And if he's worried about the 5th step, he needs to get over himself. He won't discuss anything that hasn't been discussed before, and probably what his sponsor has heard before anyway if he has any experience in hearing 5th steps. But that's not your question. Your question was what should you do. Call your sponsor. You may have some inventory to do.