Is AA a cult?

[Zanthos]

I was reading comments about AA posted on a mental health website (after stumbling across it the other night), and was shocked at the number and content of the many negative comments about AA.

Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is a Cult ? - Alcohol & Substance Abuse & Addiction

So the next night, I started to compose my own comment to post on the blog. It got a little long, but I submitted it anyway, and the guy whose website it is posted it as a standalone essay.

Thought you might find it interesting.

"I have benefited from AA and the 12 Steps... Very much so!" - Alcohol & Substance Abuse & Addiction

[sugErspun]

Did you feel AA needed defending?

I think a lot of the criticism of AA is very warranted, I probably complain about AA as much as anyone - and it saved my life!

You wrote a nice piece though...thank you for sharing it. In theory, the PhD is threatened financially by a 'free' program of recovery - though in reality, most people end up at the shrinks long before they ever get to AA (at least was the case with myself). - so it makes sense that his board would be a little bit anti-AA.

[Astro]

Excellent essay Harrison, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your thoughts. Thank you for sharing!

[nandm]

What is important to me is that the program saved my life and has helped me to become a better, more productive, happier person. If it took a cult, a religion, or a self-help program, or a spiritual program it is irrelevant to me. What is sad is that there are people who feel the need to judge the program and try to put it into a neat little category. My experience has been that the majority of negativity that surrounds AA seems to come from people who either have never tried AA or have come into AA and expected to get it by osmosis rather than putting one foot in front of the other and doing the work as it is laid out in the book then turn around and blame AA for not getting them sober. AA is a program of action, each individual has a responsiblity to do the work if they want to stay or get sober. Any program of recovery requires participation from the individual for it to work. It is fortunate that there are other recovery programs out there that do work.

I did find this interesting

Some anthropologists and sociologists studying cults have argued that no one has yet been able to define “cult” in a way that enables the term to identify only groups that have been identified as problematic. However, without the "problematic" concern, scientific criteria of characteristics attributed to cults do exist.[3] A little-known example is the Alexander and Rollins, 1984, scientific study concluding that the socially well-received group Alcoholics Anonymous is a cult by using the model of Lifton's thought reform techniques and applying those to AA group’s indoctrination methodology.[4] Even though the elements exist, several researchers pointed out the benefit of the organization. Vaillant, 2005, concluded that AA is beneficial.[5] Cult - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If AA is a cult then one needs to consider that not all cults are negative or destructive. Here are the signs of a destructive cult

HOW TO DETERMINE IF A GROUP IS A DESTRUCTIVE CULT
Cómo determinar si un grupo es un culto destructivo
Q) Anybody can unfairly attack a group they disagree with by calling it a cult or saying they are using coercive mind control. How does FACTNet prevent this type of problem and determine fairly whether or not a group is a cult?

A) FACTNet uses specific criteria to determine if a mind control system has been used, and does not suggest organizations are destructive or dangerous cults without careful research and determination that the evidence fits definite criteria. These criteria are threefold.

The first set of criteria comes from the group' use of a specific set of mind control tactics. Please see "A technical overview of mind control tactics" at How does Mind Control Work? for details or see Coercive Mind Control Tactics for a shorter version. These two documents are derived from the work of Dr. Margaret Singer professor emeritus at the University of California at Berkeley the acknowledged leading authority in the world on mind control and cults.

The second set of criteria has to do with defining other common elements of mind control systems, as defined by Robert Jay Lifton's eight point model of thought reform. Please see "Robert Jay Lifton's Eight Point Model of Thought Reform" also at How does Mind Control Work?. If most points in this model are being used in a cultic organization, it is most likely a dangerous and destructive cult.

The third set of criteria have to do with defining common elements of destructive and dangerous cults. The following section will help clarify what some of those specific elements and criteria are.

Common Properties of Potentially Destructive and Dangerous Cults

The cult is authoritarian in its power structure. The leader is regarded as the supreme authority. He or she may delegate certain power to a few subordinates for the purpose of seeing that members adhere to the leader's wishes and roles. There is no appeal outside of his or her system to greater systems of justice. For example, if a school teacher
feels unjustly treated by a principal, appeals can be made. In a cult, the leader claims to have the only and final ruling on all matters.

The cult's leaders tend to be charismatic, determined, and
domineering. They persuade followers to drop their families, jobs, careers, and friends to follow them. They (not the individual) then take over control of their followers' possessions, money, lives.

The cult's leaders are self-appointed, messianic persons who claim to have a special mission in life. For example, the flying saucer cult leaders claim that people from outer space have commissioned them to lead people to special places to await a space ship.

The cult's leaders center the veneration of members upon themselves. Priests, rabbis, ministers, democratic leaders, and leaders of genuinely altruistic movements keep the veneration of adherents focused on God, abstract principles, and group purposes. Cult leaders, in contrast, keep the focus of love, devotion, and allegiance on themselves.

The cult tends to be totalitarian in its control of the behavior of its members. Cults are likely to dictate in great detail what members wear, eat, when and where they work, sleep, and bathe-as well as what to believe, think, and say.

The cult tends to have a double set of ethics. Members are urged to be open and honest within the group, and confess all to the leaders. On the other hand, they are encouraged to deceive and manipulate outsiders or nonmembers. Established religions teach members to be honest and truthful to all, and to abide by one set of ethics.

The cult has basically only two purposes, recruiting new members and fund-raising. Established religions and altruistic movements may also recruit and raise funds. However, their sole purpose is not to grow larger; such groups have the goals to better the lives of their members
and mankind in general. The cults may claim to make social
contributions, but in actuality these remain mere claims, or gestures. Their focus is always dominated by recruiting new members and fund-raising.

The cult appears to be innovative and exclusive. The leader claims to be breaking with tradition, offering something novel, and instituting the only viable system for change that will solve life's problems or the world's ills. While claiming this, the cult then surreptitiously uses systems of psychological coercion on its members to inhibit their
ability to examine the actual validity of the claims of the leader and the cult.

What is a Destructive Cult?

[Barto]

No.

cult - Definitions from Dictionary.com

[fraankie]

interesting

there is a book
""AA-cult or cure"
but
doing some googling

"a belief by one person is ??????, by a few_a cult, by many_a religion"

hey, AA
if it works..................

[CarolD]

Hmm...
Call AA whatever you choose
Religion ...cult....program.

I promise to keep the door open
for anyone interested in coming in.

[Sheryl85]

Amen.

[Tazman53]

If AA is a cult it has to be one of the oddest cults of all, think about it, how many cults have you heard of that:

1. You can beleive or not beleive in a HP of your choice.
2. You can quit with no backlash from members.
3. You can quit and come back as often as you like with no backlash from members.
4. You can follow the suggestions if you wish or not.
5. You can attend drunk as a skunk for years.
6. You can put money in the basket or not.
7. There are no rules.

BTW that was a well written essay.

[Sugah]

Best thing I ever did in early sobriety was to read all I could about "AA Deprogramming." What I learned from those sites was a) the difference between program and fellowship (all fellowship does not act in accordance with program), b) that not all sponsors offer to sponsor out of a 12th step sense of responsibility -- some have big egos to feed, and they feed them newcomers, and c) that it's not only okay but critical to ask questions in order to determine if a) or b) apply. After all - God gave us brains to use.

90% of the folks I've met in the rooms who'd been around awhile are purveyors of the message. Almost always, when folks start talking "cults," they're talking about the actions of the other 10%. If someone tells you that "You'll never stay sober unless you come over and put a new roof on my barn," there's a good chance you've fallen in with the 10%. If, on the other hand, someone says to you, "I know you're having a hard time financially. I have some stuff around the house that needs to be done, and I pay $10/hr," you've probably stumbled across someone who understands that we alcoholics need to pay our own way and learn responsibility. Just an example...

Peace & Love,
Sugah

[Signal30]

I have noticed that most people who think AA is a cult are people that...

A) Have never been or have only been to one AA meeting.

B) I knew a woman where her mother is an alcoholic and when she went to AA she disregarded her entire family and spent every waking moment doing something AA related. (I supposed she simply skipped the chapter titled "The Family Afterward") The daughter thought AA was a cult, but she never bothered to go to Al-anon meetings, or wanted to educate herself on what AA actually is.

C) Went to a AA meeting that WAS NOT following the program, hence wasn't truly an AA meeting.

D) Are resentful against AA because it work for them.

Basically most people who think AA is a cult are people who simply don't know AA and know absolutely nothing about the program.


I heard someone say once, "Someone warned me that AA was going to brainwash me. I replied brain washed? I need my brain scrubbed with bleach!"


My one sentence definition of AA...

AA- A 12 step program that can get you sober, and make you a better person.


Tom

[justanothrdrunk]

Originally Posted by Barto

No.

cult - Definitions from Dictionary.com

(playing devil's advocate here)
Here's a couple of those definitions:
"a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc. "

And
"A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease."

One could argue that AA falls into one or more definitions of the term, "cult."

I think what's more of an issue is whether a "cult" is a bad thing or not. The media portrays any "cult" in a very negative light. Thus, the general public has adopted this opinion. Cults are bad. Really, any religion could be defined as a cult. It's a very nonspecific word.

Read the definitions for yourself. Not all have negative connotations.

For me, whether AA could be described as a cult or not is irrelevent.

[ImJulie]

Cult - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The above is the "definition" of cult from wikepedia. Funny enough, they mention AA.

For me, the actual word "cult" has such a negative conotation...and AA has been nothing but positive for me. So, for me...it matters not if some people think its a "cult".
For me, its simply a free program that loves and accepts me and wants to help me stay sober.

[Barto]

But you are right. In the end there is a valid argument that AA may be considered a cult under definition number 4 of the definitions I linked to. So, if AA is a cult according to definition number 4 (sobriety being the object of veneration), I say cults are a good thing!

And Julie, yup, it appears unless you are talking about cult film fans, etc. the word has developed a negative connotation when in reality a cult is not necessarily a bad thing.

I claim caffeine intoxication as being behind my last post.

I want to make another funny, but out of respect to those that died in Waco and in Jonestown, I won't.

[tkdan]

Of coarse it is a cult!
It is a cultivation of a relationship with ones higher power which enables one to have a lasting and quality sobriety!

[ImJulie]

Originally Posted by tkdan

Of coarse it is a cult!
It is a cultivation of a relationship with ones higher power which enables one to have a lasting and quality sobriety!

tkdan, I love that!
I also love the person who said brainwashing? I need mine scrubbed with bleach!

:ghug

[Emimily]

if it's a cult, i want a free robe. and some flowers to hand out at the airport. and maybe a sitar.

[miss communicat]

"cult" is shorthand for "culture".

We are everyday bombarded by cults which we sign on for: the word cult itself is harmless.

Examples of cults:

The American Medical association
Any Support group
Retirement planniing


AA is a culture of recovery.

The AMA is a culture of one model of healing

Retirement is one culture of planning stages of one's life.

People need to understand language a bit more clearly and be less fearful of the mass hype.

[Sugah]

Originally Posted by Emimily

...and maybe a sitar.

Sitars are cool....

Peace & Love,
Sugah

[Signal30]

Speaking of cults, I'm chairing a meeting once a week this month. Does anyone know how to get lambs blood out of my cermonial AA gown??? None of members at the compound can get it out.


Tom

[Astro]

Originally Posted by Signal30

Speaking of cults, I'm chairing a meeting once a week this month. Does anyone know how to get lambs blood out of my cermonial AA gown??? None of members at the compound can get it out.

:rof

[Alera]

nandm, thanks for posting the list from factnet. Those who have been in a real cult (as defined by Singer, Lifton et al) know the difference between AA and a real cult. In fact, the author of the book "AA: Cult or Cure?" wanted to prove AA was a cult, and yet using the Lifton model ended up disproving his own theory.

[bob_sapp]

I knew a couple of people who stopped going to AA and joined a religious cult. I saw them on the street and they tried and give me some weird literature. True story.

[caraway]

Originally Posted by bob_sapp

I knew a couple of people who stopped going to AA and joined a religious cult. I saw them on the street and they tried and give me some weird literature. True story.

Did it keep them sober?

[bballdad]

I heard once that ala nons sacrifice goats-I really did hear it from a speaker behind the podium...from Buck M from Charlotte...Emiminy,you may know him...


real AA is a way of life.I cannot imanage you can "live a cult"
but I can see being in one

sometimes AA can be seen as a cult if our dependence is on the wrong thing