We think not!

[Tazman53]

There is a guy I know who got sober in San Diego that has been in our area for about 10 years now, he will have 20 years sober in November, any how in my area when the "Promises" after the 9th step are read when the person doing the reading says "Are these extravegant promises?" they pause and almost every person in the room says "We think not!" this guy gets a look on his face of total disgust! As though this was some sort of sacrilege.

He has told me that he has a real problem with that because that is not how they did it in San Diego. I half way want to pull him aside and tell him he needs to let go of that resentment and accept the autonimity of different areas.

What are you alls feelings? Should I just keep my mouth shut or let him continue with this 10 year old resentment?

Are we wrong?????? I do not personally see the issue with it, I have been to meetings where they close and open with the Serenity prayer, to me it is no big deal, in my area we close with the Lords prayer. My sponsee is agnostic and he has no issue what ever with it.

[barb dwyer]

nah -

here - there's one group that does say it ... another one doesn't.

the group that DOES say it - also says "what's the point?"
after the
'we are not saints.'
in How it works.

*shrug*

[yogurt75]

Taz wrote: "Should I just keep my mouth shut or let him continue with this 10 year old resentment?"

Is it really a resentment? If I see the way the AA program is being changed into treatment center psychobabble should I just go along with the flow? If I see an element of marijuana maintenance folks taking over the meeting should I just go along with the flow? If I see the put your right foot in, put your right foot out, do the hokey pokey and turn yourself about droning mantras take over the closing of the meetings should I just join in and go along with the flow? Should I believe Bill Wilson when he said that AA membership should never be based upon conformity when in reality, unless one conforms it is called a resentment unless one assimilates into the borg collective.

Why don't we just give up now, roll over and accept the ineviatable? AA is becoming, and in many areas, has become Narcotics Anonymous. I'm not even meaning that whole drug is a drug is a drug mantra. Just the primary intent and practice of the program of recovery.

AA used to believe and practice that people can and do get well; people do recover. AA used to believe and practice that a commitment to recovery meant no half measures and take what you like and leave the rest. AA used to believe and practice that the program of recovery was of primary importance and the Fellowship was just a support of that program.

Today, what is practiced in the majority of AA from what I have seen in my travels is the fatalistic attitude and belief that no one gets well; no one really recovers and we ramain always sick and recovering. A spiritual malady where God can remove the liquor problem based upon a fit spiritual condition has been replaced by a medical model so-called disease concept where the liquor problem can never be truly removed and my disease is always doing push-ups in the parking lot. Faith has been replaced by fear.

AA's basic text pretty much asks if you want what we have and are willing to go to ANY lengths to get it, then you are ready to take certain steps. NA's basic text pretty much says that if you want what we have to offer (are they offering something they have or just offering something period, whatever that is) and are willing to make an effort. Going to ANY LENGTHS and making an effort screams committment to recovery vs half measures. If I make an effort to get to a meeting is nowhere near being willing to go to any lengths to get to a meeting. making an effort at recovery is nowhere near letting go absolutely.

The literature has remained the same and the practice has totally changed. AA has lost the hope from experience, strength and hope. Go to any meeting and listen to the speaker. You will hear experience, experience and experience and in the last two minutes of the talk, "AA has saved my life, thank you very much." Cute little comebacks, holding hands and reciting mantras and droning on and on is just the window dressing. The actual practice of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous has become the parctice of Narcotics Anonymous. NA is a totally different program with a totally different outlook on recovery that what was practiced and believed by AA's founding members.

If you want what we have..... after leaving an AA meeting I must answer to myself with a resounding NO! If I wanted what they had I would just go to an NA meeting. I have nothing against NA - I sometimes go to NA. However, if you want to call Alcoholics Anonymous, maybe it should actually be Alcoholics Anonymous rather than an underground NA meeting.

Call it a resentment/ Call it an observation. Call it whatever you want. A meeting isn't a meeting, isn't a meeting. If you want it all to be the same let's quit playing the game of pretending we are attending AA because, it really is no longer AA. Maybe it's AA Lite or AAA (Almost AA) or Burger King AA and have it your way AA. It certainly bears no resemblence to the way of life in practice as outlined in AA's basic text. At least in my experience.

I don't know about anyone else but when I was drinking I would have one hell of a resentment if whenever I went to a bar I got served watered down drinks. I still don't like watered down drinks or a beat bag metaphorically speaking of course.

[Freedom1990]

The phrase 'live and let live' comes to mind for me.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I can't change (other people and their attitudes)
The courage to change the things that I can (me and my attitudes)
And the wisdom to know the difference.

[Tazman53]

Wow Yogurt, man AA must really be going to hell in a hand basket in your area!

Yogurt is there a meeting format in the BB or the 12X12?

I reread your post and am left stratching my head, maybe I am having a brain fart and can not pull an answer for my question out of your post.

[yogurt75]

a few responses:

#1. No, there are no meeting formats in either the basic text or the interpretive commentary by a co-founder.

#2. Being a New Yawker, I answered your question with a question. No need to scratch your head - my response was - it is really a resentment?

As to the whole serenity prayer thingy....

each group is autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole. I guess that AA as practiced being different that what is outlined in the book has affected AA as a whole and I guess I don't choose to stick my head in the sand under the guise or excuse of the serenity prayer. Rolling over and playing dead has never been one of my stroger points. Rather than just accepting something I'm not sure I can't change, I do everything I can to change it.

Please, don't quote the 1st Tradition. They practiced unity in nazi Germany when no one spoke out against what was going on. No one else in the world spoke out either. Silence = Death

Not just my area taz - I've been to meetings in 34 US States, several Canadian Provinces and a dozen foreign countries (Europe, South and Central America and the Middle East) for over 3 decades. I also get correspondence (e-mail and other) from members throughout the world with similar concerns. Not just my area.

[Pinkcuda]

FWIW, we do it too.

[Barto]

AA has changed for the worst in some ways. For example, treatment centers have had a huge and negative impact on AA. They lump alcoholism into substance abuse and send people to AA with their (the treatment center’s) concept about recovery in AA, despite that many of these treatment centers and their employees are virtually clueless about AA, which is a simple (but not easy) program that is always FREE! – Financially anyway.

These treatment center employees are given their mantras and let loose on the befogged alcoholic or addict (in whom they see no difference) and they preach away, preaching their version of AA. This is not AA. And treatments centers will never be AA. They must make money. You have to change AA to make money from it – and change it drastically.

I don’t like chanting and I don’t do it. There was a lot of it going on around here a while back, but it’s died down now. Thank goodness. But some enjoy it. I don’t resent it. Sometimes I will just shake my head though.

[Emimily]

oh man, taz... you shoulda been at this group conscience i was at. we were debating about whether or not to read the "we think not" as a group or leave it to the reader - it was ridiculous. in the end, i didn't even vote because i didn't care anymore. so now the reader alone reads "we think not" (because it was too 'treatment center' for the group to read it together), and inevitably half the group chimes in 'cause they're used to it.

yogurt - did they elect you president of AA while i was in the bathroom? i didn't think we had those... lemme refresh your memory - in the basic text, on page 135 (last page of the family afterward), there are 3 little sayings :

"First Things First
Live and Let Live
Easy Does It."

[barb dwyer]

huh.

thanks for that, Barto -

around these parts -
the 'yakkity yack' group -
is mostly VERY newcomers,
and younger peeps.
a decent mix 'tween addict and alcoholic.

the group 'not so much' ...
are longer sobriety, and older ...
and a majority (wide margin) alcoholic.

Interesting.
Guess which one I fit better in?

[yogurt75]

Emimily wrote: "did they elect you president of AA while i was in the bathroom?"

I really wish they did. Greg M., the current "president" of AA earns well over $300,000 USD a year in salary. Nice gig if you can get it. He has even refused to rotate out of office - with that kind of $$$ I might fight leaving as well.

Do I have to be President in order to express MY experience, MY strength or MY hope?

As far as the slogans, taken in an historical context as to where they came from it doesn't mean keeping silent or being forced to conform.

First Things First was one of Dr. Bob's favorite sayings:

"But seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you."

Live and let live....

"If he is not interested in YOUR solution... you may have to drop him until he changes his mind

...We discovered the PRINCIPLES by which the individual alcoholic could LIVE (the basic text), we had to evolve principles by which AA groups and AA as a whole could survive (the Traditions)...

Live and let live does not mean having to blindly accept everything anyone else says or does. If you have a right to your opinion under live and let live that does not mean that I do not have a right to mine.

Easy Does it - BUT DO IT!

sobriety will not happen by observation or osmosis.

We discuss them with someone immediately and make amends quickly.... not easy does it

But we must try to repair the damage immediately....not easy does it

If, when driving my car I let go and let God - I am guaranteed to crash and burn. Slogans are well and good but Let Go and Let God goes totally against praying only for the knowledge of His will for me and the power to carry that out. I'm not asking God to carry it out - just the knowledge of His will for me and the power for me to carry it out.

Another of Dr. Bob's favorite sayings....

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD!

If I break a bone I can have faith that it will heal. However, unless I go to a doctor, get the bone set and cast, how it heals and how it will affect my use of that bone will be in question. I am certainly not a physician but after enough experience and observation and hearing from enough AA members, something sure as heck is broken and needs to be fixed. Just letting it heal by itself might result in AA just limping along in a state of disability.

SILENCE = DEATH!

[ananda]

It seems to me the resentment part of the gentlemans response is that it "isn't the way they did it". I suffer some from that problem. AA is the same everywhere, but it is ALSO different.

Forms are just forms, I try to respect other's forms. I don't say the lords prayer with the group, unless it is going to stand out as awkward (only 2 or 3 people in the meeting). My choice isn't about making people uncomfortable, so I bend a little. I'll also say it if I am particulary resentful about it so that I can think about how I CAN relate to some or all and what is bothering me about it (opportunity for spiritual growth).

I don't generally tell others what to do or get into thier stuff. I remember a speaker talking once about how there were people who would walk up to her after a meeting to let her know what was wrong with her. Seems a little presumptuous to me.

[yogurt75]

I wonder where "did they elect you president of AA while i was in the bathroom?" fits in under live and let live, love and tolerance?

If I had said it, someone would complain that it was a personal attack. I don't take it personally. It was just a response coming from a position of listening to years of disinformation and lack of understanding rather than from a position of knowledge of facts.

It's all OK - Live and Let Live.....

[yogurt75]

ananda wrote: " My choice isn't about making people uncomfortable, so I bend a little."

Does that mean if I was an observant Jew who kept Kosher and my hosts were having Bacon Cheeseburgers I should bend a little.

My late Sponsor always said that if you don't stand for something you're liable to fall for anything. I choose to PRACTICE these PRINCIPLES in ALL my affairs, be rigorously honest and to thine own self be true - If I can't be true to myself so as not to offend anyone am I really being true to myself? If I bend just to please even if it goes against my principles what other principles would I be willing to compromise? Where does it end?

[Barto]

Don’t mess with my bacon cheese burgers Yogurt! I don’t care whether they come from Wendy’s in a Burger King wrapper and are served by Irv's Deli! LOL.

[stone]

Originally Posted by Tazman53

What are you alls feelings? Should I just keep my mouth shut or (you mean and?) let him continue with this 10 year old resentment?

Yes.

[Tazman53]

Stone I have been thinking the same thing, why possibly give him a resntment towards me?

BTW Stone thanks for a short and sweet answer!!! LOL

[Barto]

I agree with Stone, Taz. Let it go for your sake.

[Emimily]

jeeeesus!

holy cow. this has got to be some karmic comeuppance on my part for being so nutty about my positions regarding nike, the gap, banana republic, old navy, and sweatshop labor. all those months of harranging people about the devil starbucks - it's all coming back to me now...

that was tongue-in-cheek, in case you didn't know.

yogurt (which, by the way, i love to eat), man... deep breath. for real. AA's gonna be okay. it made it through the 70's, it'll be okay. i don't need you to be silent, but being bananas isn't gonna help either. so... i guess i won't talk about whether or not AA is exactly how it should be (cause i don't know an honest answer to that question) and maybe stick to my side of the street?

i'm sorry about my president of AA crack - uncalled for.

and taz - i agree with stone. punk rock stone.

[Barto]

Let’s talk about Starbucks Mountain Girl! You go first.

[yogurt75]

Not that sure about AA making it thru the 70's and coming out unscathed.

As someone who have seen AA thru the 70's up to the present and having an intimate knowledge about AA's history my preferences differ from the accepted norm today.

My strict intepretation comes from my sponsor and his sponsor. Both were pretty much hard core. My sponsor had over 46 years when he passed on and his sponsor passed on with over 15 years. Both were super AA's and strictly by the basics old-time members.

[Tazman53]

I heard Starbucks is going to buy out McDonalds because they have the best Iced Coffee going for 1/3 of the price of Starbucks.

Starbucks makes me happy I grew up an army brat and was in the Air Force and learned how to drink real coffee that I do not need to learn a foriegn language to order!!!