Responsibility and Faith

[RufusACanal]

Each morning as I get the coffee ready to start our day, I am greeted by the sounds of NPR coming from the kitchen radio. Most mornings the listening fare is light and abit corny, though that was not the tone today.

As I went about the daily routine, I heard the commentator say that an eleven year old girl had passed away needlessly in Wisconsin. This is not news to those of us listening around the country; death is a fact of life and though the loss of a child is grim, it does happen. The commentator went on to say that the parents of the child made the repeated decision to trust first their faith in God through prayer over the need to seek medical attention. This death was most probably preventable as the parents are charged with reckless homicide.

How do you relate this to your new life ?

[best]

Originally Posted by RufusACanal

This death was most probably preventable as the parents are charged with reckless homicide.

How do you relate this to your new life ?

I don't.

I can relate to it in my old life though. I was reckless and thought that nothing could harm me. Alcohol? No it can't hurt..everyone drinks it.
I guess as I look at things today, it would be with gratitude that I lived through my reckless days and was able to find a sober life.

[RufusACanal]

So how do I relate this story to my recovery? More than anything else in this new life as I seek to better understand my place in God’s world, I am reminded first of my responsibility to be accountable in all areas of my life. My belief is that the God of my understanding makes each man and woman accountable via the gift of free will. Was it God's will that this child die? I cannot venture to assume the infinite when I work from a finite perspective. I can say that the parents of this child had a very basic obligation to insure the health and well being of their child through available resources and they chose to do nothing relevant to stop the child's illness. Prayer is my connection to God not the conveyor belt to my wishes and desires. I would never assume that God must do for me what I can do for myself. The same is equally true for Alcoholics who seek the interdiction of God in earthly affairs. I do not dispute miracles, yet I always dispute stupidity. If you are waiting on God to cure you of Alcoholism, you might want to get off your a** and get to work.

[kelsh]

I can relate it to my new life...that I was given a chance to live by my own faith and spiritualism with love in my heart for myself and others on this earth. I could not have done this alone so I went to AA and worked my program and made changes in my life so I could be sober.

I can relate it to my beginning of alcoholic drinking with the death of one of my twins born in 1969. She died of a SIDS and this is when I did lose faith in my God and told him so.

Because I couldn't accept that she was taken from us I drowned my life in alcohol...for about seven years...every evening. I did have sober times here and there but it wasn't until 1988 that I did sober up the last time.

I do not accept parents living and making decisions for a child on just faith alone. Illness can be treated and this eleven year old could have lived.

My daughter was eleven years old when I took her to the doctor because something just didn't seem right...she had started wetting the bed and never had done that before plus the sheet was stiff like it was starched where it had been wet.

I found out she had Juvenile Diabetes...she was hospitalized for a week that same day...she could have died if I hadn't WONDERED about something that wasn't quite right.

retiredmom_oldwoman

[RufusACanal]

Religious fanaticism is no stranger to AA and there are those who continue in the vain attempt to make our fellowship something it is not; a severely non-partisan religious Christian organization. This unfortunately will never change when religious fanatics believe that your conversion is their most important course. If you reject their advance and proclaim your unwillingness to believe as their particular denomination believes, you are categorically set aside. I have no problem with not being a part of; I do have a problem with those who feel that my conversion is their duty regardless of my feelings on the topic.

"When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book. Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what they mean to you."

Chapter Four, First Edition of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous

[Sugah]

The event you related is tragic, Rufus. As a mother, I can't imagine the thinking behind it. I don't have a firm belief on an afterlife or a second chance in another, but I surely hope that little girl, somehow, gets to live out the rest of her life on another plane.

My mother is 82, and we've (my brother and I) had to step in and take a more active role in her health care. She's been horribly over-medicated, which is nothing unusual in a person of any age who's overly trusting of the medical community as a whole, but especially in the elderly, it can be fatal. But, we don't deny her health care because we've had some less than desirable experiences with the medical community.

How do I relate that situation to my recovery? I couldn't walk when I got sober. I couldn't focus my foggy mind to read. I couldn't keep my checkbook straight. Page 420 in the Big Book (452 in the 4th edition) was pointed out to me. Though it's not part of the first 164, it is worth reading for it's nuts and bolts value in recovery. I never just sit and do nothing waiting on an answer. I do what's in front of me to do, and however that turns out, that's God's will for me. I didn't put that in quotes, as I'm writing it from memory, and I'm sure I'm a little off. As a result of doing what was in front of me, I've learned to walk again, I'm graduating in a couple of weeks with an English degree, and I haven't bounced a check in years.

I know one particular person, down to his last dollar, who shared in the rooms that, "God will take care of me." Then, when asked later if he applied for any jobs, his answer was, "God will put the right job in front of me." This is a repeated pattern. As a result, he's had vehicles repossessed, been evicted from apartments more than once, has very poor health, and we won't even mention his track record with women.

When I do the next right thing, it doesn't always turn out the way that I would like, but that's where my faith comes in. Regardless of the outcome of my actions, if my motives are right and if I'm putting one foot in front of the other, I don't have to understand why things have worked out the way they have. I just have to have faith that it's happened for a reason.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

[RufusACanal]

Sugah....thank you! God created human beings to live life.

[nandm]

Once again you come through with an interesting discussion topic. Thank you. I can relate to what each person has said. My experience has been that there is often a thin line between responsibility and faith. I am going to try to explain what I mean here hopefully it comes out right.

In sobriety I have run across trying to decide my HP's will and sort it out from mine. I have so much proof that my HP will take care of me and meet my needs but the key for that to happen is I have to do my part. Here is an example. At 6 months sober I had a pretty devastating accident that left me with both arms and one leg broken. I went from a $30/hr job to welfare that did not even pay the rent on the cheap apartment I had just finished moving into the day I got in the wreck. I had no health insurance (my part on this is instead of believing that nothing would happen, I should have been proactive and had health insurance). I could have just given up and put it all in my HP's hands. But that would not have gotten me out of the wheelchair and on my feet again. That took putting action to my faith. I had to get up and go to physical therapy, keep my doctors appointments, do my in home exercises, etc. I still had to stretch my dollars as far as they would go rather than just say oh well, can't pay them all so I won't pay any since I know my HP will take care of me.

The role my HP played in this is as I was doing my part my HP was doing his/hers. I wound up needing to declare bankruptcy as I had well over $100,000 in medical bills alone and was not able to walk well enough to be on my feet to return to my nursing career and wasn't sure I was ever going to be able to do that. To do the bankruptcy I knew I would lose the vehicle I had so I had to buy something to just get me around. When my income tax money came in I bought an inexpensive junker to get around with. That same night my other vehicle was repossed. I was not left without a vehicle. But I had to do the footwork by getting up and finding a vehicle that I could afford. When my welfare was up that same day I was able to file unemployment and try to find another job. The month that my unemployment was to run out a friend recommended me as her replacement in a job I had never worked at before. I got the job. But I had to do the foot work. Go to the interview and do the job. When I was discharged from that job for reporting my boss for sexual harrassment I was able to draw unemployement. Just as that was to run out a person I had met at the place I had been discharged from called me and offered me a job at another place. I had to of course do the footwork and go in and interview. When that job ended I had recieved a scholarship to go back to school. Now I am pursuing a career I have been drawn to all my life. But I have to do the foot work. I have to attend the classes, study, do the work, and make the grades.

The old saying "Faith without works is dead" is the point I am trying to get across. My HP will carry me through anything but I have to be willing to stand up and walk when I am able. I trust that doors will be locked and unlocked along my journey of life but unless I am willing to walk up to them and see if they will open then my faith is useless because my faith will not open those doors, I have to go up to them and turn the handle. Today I trust that my HP will take care of me no matter what, but I also realize that I have a real responsiblity to do my part in the relationship.

[Signal30]

Reminds me of the Eskimo story.

A man walking through the arctic uses up all his supplies. He's out of food water and is about to encounter a bizzard. As he walking he has no fear because God will help him through this. An Eskimo comes by and offers to take him to safety, the man replied, "No thanks, God is with me he will help to safety." Hours later a second Eskimo comes by and offers to take him to safety, and once again he thanks but says no thanks to the Eskimo and tells him that God will protect him and keep him safe. A third Eskimo again attempts to help the man and for the third time the man disregards the Eskimos offer to help, saying God will protect me and show me the way.

A nasty blizzard bears down on the man leaving him immobile, hypodermic, and on the verge of death. The man screams to the sky, "Oh God, why won't you help me!!!" Then a big booming voice thunders from the sky, "HEY IDIOT! I SENT YOU THREE ESKIMO'S FOR HELP!!!"


Often, God helps us through others, (doctors), opportunities, and situations. Maybe people watch too much Charlton Heston Bible movies.


Tom

[ananda]

I like the one where someone is praying to win the lotto.....He is upset with god when he doesn't win and god says you have to buy a ticket.

[ananda]

I don't know how it relates to faith, but I know that I have to responsiblity for my actions, regardless of the reason/causes. I have to make the best choices I know within the choices I can see at any given time. I have great faith in the law of cause and effect. I see my part as having to walk as skillfully as I am able within the wirling karma around me.

[Dean62]

I try to be responsible and do the next right thing and then accept the outcome as God's will. My faith is in God's will, not in God doing my will. Asking God to heal somebody is my will. Taking somebody who needs medical attention to a doctor is God's will.

[Tazman53]

"Faith without works is dead"

That says it all, I have faith that if I let my HP guide my ACTIONS things will work out, maybe not how I expected or wanted them to, but they will work out. If I sit on my arse wanting, I will reap what I sow!

[youngANDsober]

I cannot relate this to my "old" life because I had no faith. I can, however, relate this to my "new" life and see it in the some of the most simplistic things (see third paragraph)

My theory:
I will never know for sure what my higher power's will is; I can only attempt to interpret. However, upon self-examination, I CAN determine what my will is and with some certainty posit that any action I take out of selfishness is not aligned with my higher power's will.

Example (one in which I embarrassingly struggle with everyday): I can talk on my cell phone while driving and believe that if I injure myself or others, it is all part of a larger plan. Surely, my higher power would only take a life in which it truly meant to take. Yet, the primary reason I talk on my cell phone in the car is because I do not want to "waste" time in other parts of my day to make the calls. Why talk on land when I could use the time in which I am already required to drive to complete the "task"? Since my action is driven by selfish motives, I assess this action of putting people in danger to be my will and in no way aligned with my higher power's will. If I resist my selfish desires and drive attentively/safely/defensively/etc., I am no longer willfully putting myself and others at risk. In sum, I have the CHOICE to prevent harm or increase the chances of harm. The CHOICE is my will. If my CHOICE is made through SELF- employed by my character defects (i.e. selfishness) - I can reason that this choice (my will) is not aligned with my higher power's.

PS. I'm pretty sure I turned simple into complicated, but hopefully it put something into perspective for someone else.
PPS. It's interesting how when one truly attempts to serve others, one can gain more for oneself than those for whom the "service" was intended. Through writing that, I just got hella clarity on the difference between mine and my higher power's will. Go figure, those AA promises somehow always turn out to be true : )

[Tazman53]

Good post youngANDsober, and welcome to SR!!!!

[acon4726]

This topic has really made me think about the nature of my higher power. I have never thought of my higher power as an active force- if that were the case I could just sit back like these people and everything would fall into its right place.

Instead my higher power is a set of ideals and concepts that I work towards. By working towards my higher power's will and not my own, I am living by faith. This means working towards selflessness, peace and love.

YoungandSober- great post! I hope to hear more from you.

[RufusACanal]

Doing the next right thing and good orderly direction has been the keystones for my new life; this is how I grown to interrupt God's Will for me not you. These simple instructions have provided me the opportunity to form personal and social structures that work. I have especially needed simplicity to relearn how to integrate back to society and I am finding in this journey as I pull the covering off most religious organizations that real truth is at a premium.

I have no option when it comes to the necessity of understanding and accepting a Higher Power in this new life, but I refuse to be a sheep following some denominational religion for no good reason. When I say no option, I am referring to my personal commitments of willingness and acceptance that are at the root of our Twelve Steps life and the relationship with something greater than I is a necessity.

My experience has been that whether they realize it or not many Christians will automatically practice rigid intolerance when confronted with any person who deviations from their personal belief system. This is particularly prevalent when Christianity or it’s closely used synonym, spirituality is the topic in AA. This prejudice is profoundly troublesome and will continue to be a point of contention both here and in AA unless as a group we can put aside our differences concerning the Christians need to save everyone but themselves.

[nandm]

Originally Posted by RufusACanal

My experience has been that whether they realize it or not many Christians will automatically practice rigid intolerance when confronted with person who deviations from their personal belief system. This is particularly prevalent when Christian coated religion or it’s closely used synonym, spirituality is the topic in AA. This prejudice is profoundly troublesome and will continue to be a point of contention both here and in AA unless as a group we can put aside our differences.

Very well put. You put my thoughts into better words than I could have. Thank you.

[sugErspun]

Spirituality is a closely used synonym for Christianity? Am I missing something here? I consider myself a fairly spiritual person - that does not make me Christian as far as I know (and as far as my beliefs go) in fact, I am not aligned with any 'religion' - but that posts seems to reek of anger and intolerance towards the Christian religions, in particular the part about 'MOST' christians practicing rigid intolerance.

That is just flat out generalizing a group of people. I thank God every day for my fellows, Christian or not. Certainly not my job to pull the covers of 'truth' (as if I could actually do that) on their belief system.

I have not encountered anyone in a long time who had the need or desire to 'save me' with their Christian belief's and practices - maybe it's a regional thing. I know a lot of Christians - but rarely do they try to 'convert' me....

It certainly has not been my experience as a member of AA.

[RufusACanal]

Thank you Judith; getting there for me is half the fun. I am not anti-Christian, I am anti-phony religious establishment which is at the core of my present feelings. Adam, sorry, but whether I am anger or not does in no way changes my right to my feelings and my experience. Do I not have a right to generalize if I choose? You post as if I was attacking you personally. Frankly your viewpoints did not enter in to my thinking concerning this thread when I started it , but if my words have offended you, please accept my apology.

[RufusACanal]

I have posted a thread that is controversial. As I attempt to sift through what I consider the pure baloney of religion to get closer to God, I have brought forward a topic that does causes a distraction to good recovery. This is not AA, this is SR and I apology to anyone offended.

[nandm]

I hope I did not offend anyone with my reply and agreement with the post. I do have many friends who are of the Christian faith. I have also run into those who feel they need to convert the world. Just as there are many different types of people in this world there are many types of Christians. Due to my early experience with religion I am leery of it and it has only been through my sobriety that I have learned to accept that there are Christians out there who practice the principles of spirituality as well. I have a lot of respect for those people and have learned much from them. Again I appologize if anyone recieved the wrong message from my post.

[sugErspun]

Rufus,

I am not offended in the least bit. It just seemed that a particular group of people were being generalized for their beliefs.

In no way do I want to discount your experience. I just have not had the same.

But I do know about resentment. I was raised catholic - school and all. I stopped going the day I turned 18 and was given the option of not going. I have attended mass a handful of times in the past 15 years.

I had a resentment against the Catholic church - it made inventory. During that time, I came across a book titled 'The Way of Chuang Tze' (I may have spelled it wrong here) - by Thomas Merton. It was such a great book and I was blown away - I looked more into Merton and found out he was CATHOLIC! Oh wow- some of the best spiritual writing and insight came from a Catholic monk - my resentment melted away.

I still don't go to church, but I can see Catholicism differently today. In fact - my first 'protege' turned out to be a very devout Catholic - talking about the Cloud of Unknowing and all this mystic stuff. I really had to set aside any notion I had of the church to be of any help to this guy....

[Barto]

I’m not going to get into this one my friends, except to turn a phrase that’s already been mentioned:

“Faith Without Works is Dead” and it has been my experience that “Works Without Faith Ain’t Any Better.” They go hand in hand.

[RufusACanal]

I am a imperfect creature much to my previously held chagrin. And in this new life, I do resent and lie and lust, but I live differently than before. I no longer hide behind the bottle or anyone else. I actively work to change. I look for God’s hand in more than just the beauty of the surroundings. I still get angry and I think about stealing from time to time. I am currently cooking a good old fashioned resentment with a member of this 12 Step forum who sends spiteful PM’s to other members he does not like and then lies when confronted. I even want a good fight now and then, but with 51 years and a much clearer mind, I realize that this path is painfully ignorant. Am I do different than you , whoever you are.

True my friend; work without faith is empty. I do have a real beginning of faith in a God of my understanding and as I grow in that faith and in the delegation of duties of this new life, I continually learn that much more is expected of me than at any time before. I rise to this expectation from God and the message that continually returns is that there is truth that is hidden in falsehood; I look for the truth regardless of where it is hidden and I start each day with myself. Am I not the best example to start with? Do not the Steps prepare me to seek the truth in all things beginning with my life and my soul? Do not the Steps prepare each of us for the encounter first with the magnificent relationship as a child of something Greater than ourselves so that when we may begin pulling the cover off of that old diseased life and soul so we are no longer alone and powerless? I pray for guidance and revert to inventory to find the falsehood and I shine the light on change through amends. Purpose drives me to search today and though I look through eyes that have seen more negative than positive, I have not forgotten what good is; I have not remained completely amoral. The power of the Twelve Steps if worked insures change.

I question everything until I am comfortable with the answers. As I have written before, freedom in America is many faceted allowing citizens a range of discovery almost unprecedented in human history. I refuse to continue living without investigating the gift of this new life that I believe has the potential for more than simple reintegration back into the norm. I am free and I live in a country and in a time when freedom is at its fullest. Why would I not exercise ever right I have in the pursuit of truth? No chains bind me today, unless I willingly bind myself. Why would I allow anything as subtle and pervasive as religion to return me to bondage if I had the power and the knowledge to do something differently that would benefit not just me, but those I come into contact with daily? How many times have we as men and women wished we had another chance at this thing called life? I do now have another chance and this is a brand new, clean slate life and everything I used to know in my old life is suspect until I investigate and find some commonality that assures me of the worthiness in this new life. I do not do this alone. I do it with the power of my Creator, my most loved Wife and you. Just because I rile against the established order, makes me heretical; oh well. I do not live in a vacuum; I live in the world, but I do not have to be continually in agreement with the world just because the world wants me to be.