Fifth Tradition

[RufusACanal]

Five—Each group has but one primary purpose—to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

As we work with others in our Home Group meetings as well as sponsoring newcomers are you teaching the Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous throughly?

Why are the Traditions so important to the continuation of AA?

Whose responsibility is it to insure the Traditions are supported in your Area groups?

Whose responsibility is it to insure our Primary Purpose in your Home Group?

Are you a trusted leader in your Home Group? If not why?


R

[Rob B]

I left my original home group as a direct result of these questions. I ceased fighting, and began to seek out and create the fellowship I needed. A small group of us have formed a Primary Purpose Group, we study and practice the principles contained within the traditions as well as making sure our sponsees are introduced to the importance of them early on. We are not particularly well liked but when someone is dying they appear at our doorstep for a real solution.

[Ironfire]

When i got around people about the primary purpose for the first time I finally saw people in harmonious action about a single purpose..... recovery for the new person through the 12 steps. I quickly started to see that this groups message was the same as its purpose. I also started to see that other groups had a different message and that is perfectly fine by the traditions. (read the second half of the tradition) I wasnt even sure i wanted what these people had but I was surely convinced i didnt want what i had. I believe that the group itself starts showing the new person who is responsible to inform the newcomer. Then when i got guided through the steps by a man in this group he harped on me about the primary purpose and who we were going through the steps for. So i believe its not only the groups but the sponsors responsibility to make clear its primary purpose and its message.

[Sheryl85]

I love it and I think every group ought to do the Traditions Check List at least once in awhile…

You know, one thing that has been brought to my attention as of late is the fact that we tend to look at the short version of that Tradition without taking in consideration that there is the longer version. It says that our groups ought to be a spiritual entity having but one primary purpose which is to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers. Lately I’m getting frustrated by the feeling that the spiritual aspect is seemingly being overlooked. Personally, I’m not apologetic that I’ve had a spiritual awakening. I use it for the betterment of others as well as myself. It’s the main thing that does allow me to carry the message and not the mess. I feel that the better my spiritual condition, the better I can be of service to my group to make it stronger and more effective and I can use my personal experiences to help others hopefully make a spiritual connection as well.

I’ve noticed lately that I’ve also been allowing myself to be mentally hamstrung because a few well meaning members have expressed their view that speaking of a Higher Power (especially if that Higher Power seems to be connected in any way with “RELIGION”) smacks of cult like recruitment. (And to think, before I moved to Waco I was warned that I was moving to Jerusalem on the Brazos. Nothing seems further from the truth now days.) And it’s not just in my immediate area. I’ve seen some of that same opinion expressed in out-of-town meetings and even here on this site. (I do recognize the difference that this site is not affiliated with AA.) But, I’m hoping that this is not a trend in AA that will make a deep or lasting impression on our society. I know that I for one will defend every member’s right to have a “God of their understanding” be it religious based or not. After all, spirituality has no boundaries.

It is my personal belief that if groups stop being spiritual entities they will collapse. If they collapse, what will become of the alcoholic who still suffers? Our common welfare should come first…

For now I guess I’d better get back to the business of practicing Step 12, huh?

[sugErspun]

Well put sheryl.

I do not apologize for the great fact of my life either. If you want to know how I got and stayed sober - you are going to hear about God. I do not have power to make people feel uncomfortable, just as people do not have power to make me feel uncomfortable.

~a

[nandm]

My home group did a group inventory last year. We found many areas we could improve upon and the traditions and teaching those were one of the areas. I think a group inventory is a very healthy thing for any meeting group to do. It definately brought to light the positives and negatives about how we were carrying the message as a whole. Thank you for the questions they are definately something to think about as IMHO it is up to each of us to maintain the traditions and to carry the message.

[Tazman53]

In speaking of carrying the message to those still suffering, I need to look at myself first and ask if I have a message to carry to the still suffering alcoholic:

1. Have I worked the steps with a sponsor per the BB or am I in the process of working the steps with a sponsor per the BB?

2. Do I have a sponsor who has a sponsor?

3. Do I have a service position?

4. Do I have a home group that I regularly attend?

5. Do I do my best to apply all these principles in all areas of my life?

6. Do I make myself available to those seeking a sponsor or help?

My home group is going through some changes right now, for the better I beleive, we are moving in a direction we feel will open the door to more of those still suffering.

I have only been in AA a little over 18 months and I have seen groups grow and shrink and then grow again, it seems to reflect the message being carried by the group as to whether it shrinks or grows, the stronger the message, the more the growth, the more the message gets diluted the smaller the group. Each group seems to have a core, a group of people with a good solid message, when the group shrinks thier message is heard and the group grows then it hits a size where the message starts to become diluted and the group shrinks again down to that core group and the cycle starts again.

Any one else see this?

[RufusACanal]

In our Home Groups, we each have a responsibility to see that the Traditions are alive and well. Do you stand up for the Traditions? How often do you compromise Traditions for the sake of emotions? The old argument of other addictions and closed AA meetings is a perfect example. How often do you shy away from talking about Traditions, when the Steps are so much safer? As a fellowship, we have tunnel vision; we teach and lead newcomers to a new life individually, but we refuse to teach and lead so that the newcomer can carry our heritage.

While both versions of our Traditions remind us of our responsibilities, the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions gives each member a more defined path to contributing and insuring stability in AA. Where does stability begin in support and service of the Traditions; with each member striving daily to work all of the Steps coupled with specific teaching of our founding structure. “Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point”. This individual member action, borne from working all of the Steps is the same action necessary for support of our Traditions. If you are Sponsoring and not teaching the Traditions, you are not providing the new man or woman the complete program of recovery and you are committing a grave disservice to AA. With each members continued growth in ESH, the Home Groups are strengthened and each gains a resource that is vital to AA's continued success.

Teach the Traditions. Do not settle for half measures. A new life has a cost whether you truly want to recognize it or not and so does the continuation of a healthy and prosperous AA. Whose responsibility is it to insure the health of AA? All of us.

[Tazman53]

I am actually going to have my sponsee do a little research on the Washingtonians since he just finished doing step 12 last week, I am sure he will wonder what in the heck does that old man have me doing now and why? LOL

[Barto]

Forgive me if I’ve brought this up before. At almost every AA meeting I go to we read: “Our primary purpose is to stay sober and to help other alcoholics achieve sobriety – two purposes.

This may be splitting hairs, but I think the focus has shifted. I believe there is a significant difference between staying sober AND carrying the message: and staying sober BY carrying the message.

I know it may be nearly impossible for a drunk to carry the message, but is it impossible? Is it totally out of the realm of possibility that someone who has slipped may carry the message to someone who’s never heard of AA and both may wind up sober? I don’t think so. Therefore, I agree with the Traditions as originally written and the way they are still written today, rather than with this newer preamble.

That said, I’d rather not try it myself.

[GlassPrisoner]

Is it totally out of the realm of possibility that someone who has slipped may carry the message to someone who’s never heard of AA and both may wind up sober

(paraphrased) "We cannot transmit something we do not have"........

That said, the newcomer can carry the alcoholic to the message ! Also, newcomers can stick out their hands to other newcomers, because they can relate better than someone with "X" years.

1. Have I worked the steps with a sponsor per the BB or am I in the process of working the steps with a sponsor per the BB?

2. Do I have a sponsor who has a sponsor?

3. Do I have a service position?

4. Do I have a home group that I regularly attend?

5. Do I do my best to apply all these principles in all areas of my life?

6. Do I make myself available to those seeking a sponsor or help?

I can honestly answer yes to those questions.

[sugErspun]

Jim had a great thread a few months back about that saying "Our primary purose is to stay sober...."

I mean - God keeps us sober right? No human power - last time I checked, the group is a human power.

Where does it tie back to the book that the primary purpose of an AA group is to remain sober.

Barto - exactly - staying sober by helping other's acheive sobriety. Not staying sober by showing up to meetings.

[Barto]

Glass,

I knew “you can’t give away something you don’t have” would come up. But we are not talking about a wet drunk giving away his sobriety, we are talking about his helping another to achieve sobriety or his carrying the message (as opposed to being an example of the message, or living the message.) I think it is possible that someone who has relapsed after many years (maybe even after a day), can carry the message. And what does that have to do with one versus two primary purposes?

PS. I’ve done, am doing, all those things too. But I actually related better with the old timers when I was new. I guess I wanted what they had. Go figure.

SugErspun,

Thanks. I think I may have commented in that post. I wasn’t certain when I wrote this reply though.

[RufusACanal]

I remember that thread and while I have a high regard and tremendous respect for Jim and his ESH, I disagree with this line of thinking. Let me be clear, for me, God does not keep me sober, I do. I personally believe God provided the opportunity and the direction of a new life for which I am grateful, but I am the one individual who is responsible for my recovery from Alcoholism and the work that allows this life to continue as such time as I leave this life. Again, for me, it is ludicrous in the extreme that God keeps me sober and it is wrong to imply the same to others because to do so, impinges on each AA members right to believe in their conception of a Power Greater than themselves. There is a firm reason why Christ is not represented in this Book and the respect for all spiritual paths must be accepted.

“Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another’s conception of God. Our own conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to make the approach and to effect a contact with Him. As soon as we admitted the possible existence of a Creative Intelligence, a Spirit of the Universe underlying the totality of things, we began to be possessed of a new sense of power and direction, provided we took other simple steps. We found that God does not make too hard terms with those who seek Him. To us, the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive; never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek. It is open, we believe, to all men."

We Agnostics, Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, First Edition

[Barto]

That’s exactly why AA is a spiritual, not a religious, program.

[RufusACanal]

"Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."

One purpose, two components. I am highlighting the second; Helping others achieve sobriety.

[Barto]

You’re reaching Rufus. LOL.

[RufusACanal]

Really? Now would I really do such a thing?

[sugErspun]

Looks like the age-old discussion of choice is going to rise again....please take the following as my experience and opinion only. These threads tend to lock up when this discussion comes about. I respect your experience Rufus, I truly do - that does not mean we see things the same way.

I cannot take credit for being sober, it's a miracle, and one that I could not pull off - I tried and failed too many times. Only through surrendering my will and my life over to the care of God do I stay sober - to me, that means everything. Choice, power, control fall under everything (and for posting this, they all pretty much mean the same thing to me:Power,Choice,Control - all based in self and in the mind.)

The books says that the insanity of alcoholism returns, then we drink.

I was considering this the other day.

Is insanity a choice? Can one choose to truly be insane?

I know a lot of people who did insane acts, and insane things when drinking - but AA talks about insanity when we are sober, then we drink.

I am not saying this is right or wrong - but, things made a lot more sense to me when I considered that maybe being powerless meant I don't have a choice one way or the other( I will drink no matter what). And when I made a decision at the Third Step to let God do what 'he' will with me - that means all the way. No turning back. No taking credit for something that I could not pull off.

Just my thoughts on it all...

[FightingIrish]

Reading threads like this reminds me that I'm an alcoholic. :-)

[yogurt75]

Can anyone tell me where that "I have a sponsor who has a sponsor" thing came from? Certainly it didn't originate anywhere in AA.

[Sheryl85]

Please don't take anything I say as criticism, because it is not meant to be.

I don't know that the sponsor having a sponsor thing is written in any conference approved literature. Probably isn't. But I don't think that common sense should be thrown by the wayside just because it isn't in black and white. The word sponsor or sponsorship isn't even mentioned in the BB. It doesn't show up until the 12 and 12 (after 1952). I've been told that back in the day, the person who 12-Stepped you was your unspoken sponsor. However, I can't say sponsor with a sponsor it isn't in the pamphlet about sponsorship because I haven't read it in over 22 years.

What I do know is that my sponsor has a sponsor and she uses her. It was a good lesson for me to see and learn both how the program is working in other people's lives and see that part of the literature at work which talks about how we should bring certain areas of concern to people who are more knowledgeable in those areas and in sobriety than we are. (I'm including the part in the literature that talks about "religious people" here as well.) I still do it myself. My sponsor still talks to her sponsor even after 34 years in the program. Why? Because if it works, don't fix it. It worked for her and it's worked for me. It has worked for many people I know...does that make it carved in AA stone...well, I'm not a stone carver so I can't speak to that. However, as a recovering alcoholic, I've found it to be vital to my successful recovery program.

I know that this doesn't really answer your question. I don't know where exactly it emanated from, but I've heard it said to newcomers for over 22 years. I heard it when I walked in the doors and I took the advice in choosing my sponsor. Let's look at it this way...if you were starting as a carpenter who would you ask to teach you the trade? Would you ask the new guy with a couple of weeks on the job or would you ask the Master Carpenter? One could show you were the john's at and tell you payday's on Friday while the other could show you how to do the job from foundation to rooftop.

Thanks for letting me pontificate a bit...

[bballdad]

Taz
2. Do I have a sponsor who has a sponsor?

I do have a relguar sponsor and he does not have a sponsor...he is about 88 yrs old but he does pray a lot.

I have a service sponsor who does have a sponsor

[Tazman53]

I do have a relguar sponsor and he does not have a sponsor...he is about 88 yrs old but he does pray a lot.

I would be willing to bet you money that your sponsor has had a sponsor, maybe not. It is a suggestion, one that I see the commone sense in. I have always felt that someone who has been in my position as a sponsee makes a better sponsor. JMHO a sponsor should teach by example.

bballdad please do not think I am being judgemental of you or your sponsor, somehow I imagine that at the age of 88 he has outlived at least one or 2 of his sponsors so he has plenty of experience in being a sponsee.

Experience trumps opinion every time imho. If I never had a sponsor and never had worked the steps as outlined in the BB with a sponsor, what experience could I bring to the table to help a sponsee? None, it would be merely my opinion and opinions are like butt holes, every one has one and most of them are not that good.

How can you lead someone some place you have never been yourself?

How can someone advice some one else on the steps if all they have to bring to the table is thier opinion? There is a huge difference when someone shares thier experience, they have been there and done that.

Those that talk as though they have great wisdom on a matter that they have no experience in can in some cases do more harm then good, the sad thing is many of them do not care who they may harm as long as they are able to feed their own ego. When I was drinking I was famous for that, I had an opinion on EVERYTHING!!!!! No experience, but an opinion and I was going to present it as fact and not give a hoot who got hurt!

I remember when I first came into AA, there were many times the steps would be discussed and having read them in both the BB and the 12X12 I considered myself an expert on them because I had read them!!!! Well once I actually started to work the steps with a sponsor I discovered that I knew very little about what the steps were or how to work them! I just hope and pray that me spouting my opinions did not mislead someone else.

[bballdad]

good morning Taz

"I would be willing to bet you money that your sponsor has had a sponsor"

yep,he used to have a sponsor but he passed away.The thing about this guy is he cannot read or write,but he`s the best AA I ever seen.He knows how to listen,and then do.Guess he never wrote out his 4th step.He told me once he was out in the middle of a field plowing about lunchtime when the preacher came up.They sat down and he did his 5th step,and it lasted untill dark.