Love and tolerance of others is our code. ??

[Tazman53]

The Love I have no issue with anymore, I understand that I can love someone with out needing to like them.

My tolerance of others when it comes to thier life style, religion, race, nationality, politics, etc. is getting better.

What I am wondering is where should we draw the line on tolerance?

Specifically what I am struggling with is should we just stand by and tolerate someone in a public forum, especially this one who instead of sharing thier ESH thereby making AA an attractive program, time and time again:

Posts things taken out of context that reflect thier own negative views on a program they claim to be a part of?

Who make statements that lead people who may be investigating the program to beleive that individuals within AA are the Program of AA?

In reference to the above things like all the men in AA are there just to chase skirts and not there for recovery, that all the people in AA judge people as "Dry Drunks who are not drinking but not working the program, etc.?

Is it me? Should we just simply stand by and tolerate someone posting things taken out of context and other things that reflect badly on individuals trying to make it appear as though a persons actions who is a member of AA is the program of AA that may very well keep someone from looking into AA as a possible solution to their problem?

Or should we make sure that the person investigating AA is made aware that what was posted was taken totally out of context and put into context what was taken out of context?

When the actions of individuals within AA are brought up as being AA should we let the person investigating know that the persons actions are not AA but the actions of an individual?

I may be wrong in this feeling, but do we not have a responsibilty to the person investigating AA as a solution to thier problem to point out when someone is posting things taken totally out of context reflecting badly upon AA and a responsibilty to point out that an individuals actions who happens to be in AA is that individauls actions and not AA?

In other words is thier a limit to what we should tolerate when it comes to people misrepresenting AA?

[NOMOMERLOTMAMMA]

I feel your frustration Taz...I'm not quite sure what the answer is. I usually ignore those postings, but you do make an interesting point that the newcomer might get the wrong idea about AA..

I'll be interested to see where this conversation goes...

[tkdan]

As a newcomer to the program I can relate. I was getting much conflicting views about AA when I was investigating my options. Most people had very positive things to offer about the program. As an alcoholic I tended to focus on the negative. The negative gave this alcoholic one more excuse not to take that step through the door of AA. Fortunately the positive influence by far outweighed the negative. I would hope that if I were ever to say or do anything that would be considered negative towards the program someone would call me on in, or at least clear up any misinformation that was being conveyed.

[Tazman53]

Dan newcomers and those looking into the program listen to what others in the program share and form their opinions on what AA members share.

Sadly there are people that feel that their opinion over rides reality and they give their opinions as if they are facts.

They do not care that thier opinion may very well kill someone.

It is one thing for someone to share thier experience, and a totally different thing when someone with no experience shares their opinion and does not state it is only thier opinion.

You will see posts presented as proof of some point they are trying to make that are taken totally out of context.

Heck there are people that quote things out of the Bible out of context claiming it justifies slavery as being right.

There are folks in AA that have never worked the steps with a sponsor that will share their opinion on a step as though it was their experience when it is not their experience.

The best way I have found in AA to seperate the wheat from the chaff is to ask them what step they are working on with their sponsor, this will let you know if they are giving their opinion or sharing their experience.

[JustOneMan]

It is an unfortunate fact that there will always be those persons who have an agenda of their own. It may be that they hate or distrust AA for some reason or other. perhaps they had a personal experience that was negative. Perhaps they have a loved one who has tried AA and it did not work for them. Perhaps they are simply bored, have no life, and find it amusing to create controversy as a way to feel some sort of power over others.

Yes, they are here and probably always will be.

This begs the question... Should it be tolerated? Should they be kicked off these boards? Or should we simply continue to tolerate it in hopes that maybe, just maybe they are alcoholic and really do need our help?

No answers here, but it is certainly worth mulling over.

JOM

[Emimily]

some are sicker than others. i usually find that if a newcomer wants sobriety badly enough, they'll stick around long enough to hear more than the nay-sayer. it IS frustrating to hear people share things about the rooms out of context, but to see (or be!) a really dedicated member of AA buy into the cheapness of that drama is even more frustrating.

it's not hard to get sucked in, though. when folks badmouth something that saved my life, as well as millions of others, with no real experience of their own i get riled up as well. tolerating those people helps me grow spiritually, even if they seem intolerable.

no one can be "kicked out" of AA, even if they share without any type of experience. i don't know if someone can be kicked off a forum for sharing ignorantly, unless it's really offensive toward someone specific.

just for today, i need to pray for the folks whose shares seem to hurt more than help. i need to remember that god loves them just as much as me, and they're just as worthy and deserving of peace as i am.

[RufusACanal]

Freedom is a wide beach; some of that beach is pristine and wondrous, some of that beach is nasty and polluted and still more is common and unnoticeable. SR is not AA. No matter how much I am in disagreement with another, within certain bounds they can say whatever they want to; that is freedom. I enjoy the latitude provided by SR in this open forum; I do not always agree with the positions some take and likewise some do not agree with my supposed wisdom. This is an open forum, open to all. I am not shouldering the cost to maintain this forum. I am not the leader of the forum. I am a man looking to find answers and exchange views with friends and newcomers.

"And acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing, or situation—some fact of my life—unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at that moment. Nothing, absolutely nothing happens in God’s world by mistake. Until I could accept my alcoholism, I could not stay sober; unless I accept life completely on life’s terms, I cannot be happy. I need to concentrate not so much on what needs to be changed in the world as on what needs to be changed in me and in my attitudes.

Shakespeare said, “All the world's a stage, and all the men and women in it... merely players.” he forgot to mention that I was the chief critic. I was always able to see the flaw in every person, every situation. And I was always glad to point it out because I knew you wanted perfection just as I did. AA and acceptance have taught me that there is a bit of good in the worst of us and a bit of bad in the best of us; that we are all children of God and we each have a right to be here. When I complain about me or about you, I am complaining about God’s handiwork. I am saying that I know better than God.

For years, I was sure the worst thing that could happen to a nice guy like me would be that I would turn out to be an alcoholic. Today, I find it’s the best thing that has ever happened to me. This proves I don’t know what’s good for me. And if I don’t know what’s good for me, then I don’t know what’s good or bad for me or anyone. So I am better off if I don’t give advice, don’t figure I know what’s best and just accept life on life’s terms, as it is today—especially my own life, as it actually is. Before AA, I judged myself by my intentions, while the world was judging me by my actions.”

Dr. Paul O, deceased, Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, Third Edition

[miss communicat]

My philosophy is that AA Truth needs no defense nor offense.

AA's Truths are self evident. All that is required is to get our ego out of the way so that we might allow our personal Truth to shine through us, and through our acts and words and thoughts we are becoming powers of example.

I don't think its necsessary to worry about what another person says or does not say. To view others as mistaken and dangerous is to put our attention on the wrong things. Keep the focus on helping those who sincerely ask for help, and on staying sober.

Simple, right?

[sugErspun]

Let me begin by stating - I am no saint. My posts and getting 'flamed' myself is not a rare thing on these boards (but I do stick to the rules).

Anyhow - what comes to mind this morning (feeling very centered today - blessed indeed)

We stopped fighting anyone or anything.

[Tazman53]

This begs the question... Should it be tolerated? Should they be kicked off these boards? Or should we simply continue to tolerate it in hopes that maybe, just maybe they are alcoholic and really do need our help?

Tolerated? Of course, in the rooms we tolerate when needed.

Should they be kicked off these boards? No, as long as they are within SR rules, that is up to SR.

Or should we simply continue to tolerate it in hopes that maybe, just maybe they are alcoholic and really do need our help?

Yes, the main reason I brought this up is to see if it is wrong that we let the newcomer know when something posted by some one else is that is not truly representative of AA. If this was simply an annoyance, I would hit the "Ignore" button and move on, I just am worried that someone may die because they took something that was not AA as AA.

it's not hard to get sucked in, though. when folks badmouth something that saved my life, as well as millions of others, with no real experience of their own i get riled up as well. tolerating those people helps me grow spiritually, even if they seem intolerable.

So should one just ignore that which may mislead a newcomer that is seeking a solution? The newcomer and the person investigating AA is the one I am concerned with, I have no real problem with tolerating folks doing this, I just worry that some one may die because they are misled into beleiving that AA is something it is not.

Keep the focus on helping those who sincerely ask for help, and on staying sober.

I agree whole heartedly, where I am going with this is there are people sincerely asking for help and being told something that is an absolute falshood by someone saying they are in AA.

An example of this is in the Alcoholism Forum, a person sincerely seeking advice on steps 2 & 3 that we know has been struggling saying they were having an issue with those steps because they felt they were religous. Well some AA folks shared thier experience when they worked these steps and then having the person who has not worked the steps saying they are in AA saying that AA is religous.

Just let that ride? Ignore the preamble and the Traditions and let them state that as though it were a fact?

[nandm]

Some great points, Taz. As far as the newcomer goes, I do believe that I owe anyone who is seeking a solution to their alcohol problem the offer of the solution that was so freely given to me. After that it is up to them whether or not they choose to accept it.

On the other note, regarding the thread in the alcoholism forum. Since it deals with an AA topic I will pm Carol and see if it can be moved to the 12 step forum. Makes sense to me but she may have a reason to have left it there or she just hasn't seen it yet. But yes, I know what you are talking about on the religion thing. The person that brought that topic into the thread attempts to do it with many AA threads. Each time people the work the Steps stand up and state their opinions that AA is not a religion. I feel that is all we can do, point out that the person who claims AA is a religion or religious has not actually worked the suggested program and applied the Steps and Principles in their life so any claims made should be taken with a grain of salt since they are not given with the experience of actually working the program of AA. That is all I can do for the newcomer. Make it clear that AA is a spiritual program when it is actually worked although to some it may appear on the surface to be a religious program once one digs deeper they find it has nothing to do with religion.

I am protective of the program as I owe my life to it but I also understand that not everyone chooses to work the program the way I do, and it works for them the way they work it. I do not hesitate to point out that if one does not feel AA is the way for them that there are many other methods of recovery out there and encourage them to try them. By doing so I leave the door open to AA rather than build a resentment and hopefully in the long run help the suffering alcoholic.

[Barto]

No one should be silenced or kicked off the boards for expressing their views. There appears to be a nucleus of solid AA members on this website, as there is in most meetings. Also, there appears to be a fair share of dissidents. I think that it is the responsibility of older members to share their experience and knowledge when confronted with erroneous posts that would paint AA in a false light.

The scary thing is that the old timers that were there to save my ass when I had no where else to go are dying off. So it is up to some of us to take their place – scary for me because I don’t feel up to filling their shoes. But I have to assume they were just as afraid of filling the shoes of Bill W., Dr. Bob, and the likes of Chuck C., etc.

One thing that I try to keep in mind is that “I cannot get, or keep, anyone sober.” Only God can do that, except, perhaps, the rare person that is able to do it alone (probably not really an alcoholic anyway). Also, something that was said to me years ago comes to mind. “If something I say chases someone [who belongs] out of AA, don’t worry, alcohol will chase them back in.” So I speak my mind trying to state that I am sharing my experience when I am sharing my experience, and trying to state that I am sharing my opinion when I am sharing my opinion.

Taz, I think you are solid. I also think that SR is wise to have an “alcoholism” section as well as an "Alcoholism 12 Step" section. I think that those that are really alcoholic and serious about recovery will eventually make it over to the 12 Step section. As far as the AA critics go, I’m usually up for the debate! And when I’m not I see that others are.

Good topic, me thinks!

[GlassPrisoner]

Hey Taz !

Here's what my sponsor once told me:

Him: Are you standing ?

Me: Yes

Him: Good. Now, put your feet together and draw a square around them, about 1 foot square.

Me: OK

Him:Now, Anything past that is none of your business !

The point ?

I Keep my side of the street clean, and set an example with my actions.

If shares get out of line, I share my ES&H. Specifically, what it was like, what happened, & what it's like now.

Remember, we have quit fighting anyone and anything.

I don't wish revenge, but If people are not working their program, the price will be paid by them.

[miss communicat]

Originally Posted by Tazman53

and then having the person who has not worked the steps saying they are in AA saying that AA is religous.

Just let that ride? Ignore the preamble and the Traditions and let them state that as though it were a fact?

yes. just let it ride. And keep sharing your experience, strength, and hope. redirect the original querent to the written passage of the tradition. and let it go.

we are powerless over people. this includes the person who believes differently than we and who even misunderstands the written tradition of AA.

[RufusACanal]

I have asked a few choice members of SR while in a fit self-righteous indignation what Step they were working as if it were any of my business. Indignation Example Number 47; "How dare you, obviously you really don't know who I am!" Of course I justified my position with a multitude of baloney and slapped each member with my Frequent Meeting Miles Card. Whether it is God or no God, something greater coupled with my desire is the key and if IT is truly greater, can't IT handle everything so why get into the mix? Are you greater or the party in question? Geez, kiss and hug. Be free. This forum is no different than the outside face to face world, except in one tiny forgotten way; we would never insinuate, insult and ridicule others in an outside meeting like we do here.

[GlassPrisoner]

How dare you, obviously you really don't know who I am

Obviously, you don't know who I think I am

[Barto]

Originally Posted by RufusACanal

... This forum is no different than the outside face to face world, except in one tiny forgotten way; we would never insinuate, insult and ridicule others in an outside meeting like we do here.

I think that I’ve been to some meetings that you haven’t been to Rufus. LOL.

Glass, I resemble that remark!

[jimhere]

Let's not mistake permisiveness for tolerance. Because if you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything.

[best]

Originally Posted by Tazman53

What I am wondering is where should we draw the line on tolerance?

When "your" toes are being stepped on.

I had issue in the past when people would bash God.
Guess what... God is big enough to handle it by Himself. I don't need defend Him.

AA has had people bash it for years and it has held up for those many years as well.
If you see a wrong... bring it to the attention of those in charge. Their job to handle such.
If you see an opinion you don't agree with... with kindness and love...share what you feel is a better opinion. Bashing another's opinion speaks volumes and people will see that for themself almost every time. So in the example you posted... People will see the true and will try AA or not based on their own choices, not so much on what others say but what they see.

I like what you have...How do I get it? Show me how.

[bballdad]

this is a interesting thread and brings up some good points Taz

my 2nd sponsor told me once(here I go again)
at every AA meeting,there are all levels of sanity,and insanity,and spirituallity.

I would be a canidate for the nuthouse if I really expected AA,whether f2f or on a message board to be 100 % on the same page all the time.
It`s impossible considering the condition of alcoholics,quality of soberiety,brain damage,etc
It never has happened,It never will happen

but none the less
Bill W (1941) said-our chief responsibility to the newcomer is an adequate presentation of the program.That I have some control over,what they do with it, I do not have control over.