Problems with God

[Rob B]

The word God is highly emotional for many folks. However, it's just a word, nothing more. Setting aside prejudice, old belief systems, and asking what do spiritual principles really mean to me are ways to have an actual experience with this word, not a mental construct created by past beliefs that may have been forcefully imposed.The Big Book chapter We Agnostics offers several considerations to help find something beyond self.

[Emimily]

my old sponsor used to get so frustrated with people complicating the "god thing"... she'd say "listen, all it is is admitting that there IS something out there and that YOU'RE not it!" personally, i view god as the universe, energy flowing through all sentient beings, and a touch of a gary larson comic strip god. y'know, with the sandals and the beard.

today, i work on fully trusting god with the whole nine. i've realized that if god can take away the obsession to drink, the big guy in the sky can do just about anything. just my opinion.

[nandm]

Thank you Rob. You post is dead on for me. I had huge issues with the word God. It conjured up so much baggage from my past that it felt like the word was the roof crashing down on me. Made me want to run away as fast as my legs could carry me. Fortunately, I listened to others, read "We Agnostics", and was desperate enough to set aside my preconceptions long enough to realize that in AA the term God is just that a term used to reference a Power Greater than myself.

[bballdad]

if I think I have a problem with God,maybe I should consider the problem God has with me!


when I got to AA,I really wasn`t too crazy about the "God Stuff" because of several reasons.
the main reason was- I brought in to AA my personel conception of God.The conception I had formed by my actions,beliefs formed by my twisted perception of world events,other folks behaviour,and my behaviour which resulted in my guilt and shame.It was my conception,none the less,brought on by my misunderstanding.In AA I learned to set those old ideas aside and let the steps bring about a new conception of God,one that would work for me in any circumstances.

that is why the 2nd and 3rd step flowed together for me,I just was willing to ask "whoever or whatever out there" to keep me sober today.I quit defining God and tryed to utilize God.About one month later,I named that "whoever or whatever" God...the main part of my 3rd step was asking God to keep me sober,one day at a time,since my will was to drink,I gave it to God and have been sober since.
GOD works!

[sugErspun]

Great thread everyone.

God is nothing more than a word. I have tried to find substitutes that express the same idea, but three letters are just so simple, and people being uncomfortable isn't necessarily a bad thing...they might ask me what God means to me.


Then I have to explain that I haven't the faintest idea of what God is, but I believe that it is, and once I got to the point of being willing to believe that - my world changed.

Joseph Campbell explains it well in "The Power of Myth" talks - I don't have the book on me, but he says "God is a metaphor for that which trancends all levels of intellectual thought." - sums it up nicely for me. I can fit that into my brain.

If I wasn't an alcoholic - it probably wouldn't be that big of a deal to most people. But those who knew me before, during and now - putting 'God' into my life has led to me not drinking - they results are tangible. They see it first hand...like adding dye to water.

[Tazman53]

I have a Higher Power of my understanding who I choose to call God because he fits the definition of God:

Main Entry: 1god
Pronunciation: \ˈgäd also ˈgȯd\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German got god
Date: before 12th century
1capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a: the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe bChristian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
3: a person or thing of supreme value
4: a powerful ruler

I fully understand folks having issues with the God deal, that is why a good sponsor is so crucial, my sponsee is agnostic, we spoke at great length over the God deal, there is no reason for me to divulge what he views as his HP, that is his HP and his HP works for him, his understanding of his HP has evolved with time. I am thankful that my sponsor did a good job of explaining the HP deal, telling me to put aside all preconcieved ideas I had about a HP and to open my mind and seek out a HP of my understanding, not his, I did the same with my agnostic sponsee and it took him very little time to find that HP he needed to take care of his needs.

A good sponsor is so key in the God area and also in the "AA is a religion" area as well.

So many people, some even in AA feel that AA is a religion, those not in AA view it as a religion simply because of God, prayer, meditation, & spirituality beinig mentioned in the BB.

Then there are those in AA that twist it around to be a religion in their eyes, some times simply to avoid doing the steps, some have sponsors that have the same view, others are of the "I don't need a sponsor, going to meetings and reading the literature are all I need" type, then of course you have those who dump a sponsor because the sponsor is trying to show them that AA is not a religion, but they stick with thier preconcieved notion that it is a religion and dump thier sponsor.

A good sponsor stopped me from reading inbetween the lines, he stopped me from reading only the parts that supported my preconcieved ideas and made me read the entire thing in context which reveals the truth, AA is not a religion.

Good sponsorship eleminates a lot of misconceptions about AA.

[Music]

I've learned over the years that my primary responsibility as a sober adult is to try to be a functioning member of society which to me means that I have to be able to not only work with, but communicate with other people besides the folks in AA. There's reason why in one part of the Big Book the words "Higher Power" are used and then later on the work "God" is used. Early on I could accept Higher Power but had a problem with God. Later, I found that God didn't hurt as much and was also more understood by other members of society than Higher Power. If I use the word God, I can talk to just about anyone. If I use Higher Power, I get some blank stares from time to time.

I think one of the signs of growth in AA is when a person can overcome little things like the use of the word God. When I was able to achieve this small step, I started to feel more at peace, not only with my HP but with the people around me who happened to believe in God. Today I'm also able to say that my resentment about organized religion is gone. The idea that I used to have about churches being filled with hypocrites is replaced with the idea that there's always room for one more.

[LegalLady]

I have a problem with God well I like him and stuff, but I think he has other things more important to worry about than me. I'm only on day 31 and I as just a drinker who drank in my house and my problems were problems but not as serious as others and I see God working for those who needed him. But I think he's got more important people to worry about. I don't know how to ask him to help me if there are others who need him more.

[splendra]

So it is not so much you have a problem with God just your ideas about God are disturbing you.....

I don't believe God worries about us we do that on our own pretty good....

[LegalLady]

I think everyone's idea's about God are disturbing. LOL. Its scary. I just wish I knew I was not invisible. But there are so many people out there who wish that too. So who am I? Just another small pebble on the beach, ya know.

[Music]

LL, you and I are 180 degrees apart. I used to think I was so important I didn't need God. You think you're so unimportant that God doesn't need you.

I had to come to the belief that I couldn't run my life any more, and as I see it, you need to come to the point to where you believe you are important enough for God to pay attention to you. In both our cases, God isn't the one who moved away. I did and you have. I had to turn back and let Him in and you have to do the same. I had to surrender and give up the fight. The short form of the first three steps in AA is: I can't, He can, I think I'll let Him. Just that simple!! You're fighting the idea that you're not good enough, and I fought the idea the I was too good to ask for help. STOP FIGHTING.!!

[bballdad]

at one time I felt I wasn`t good enough for anything good.I was beyond redemption,forgiveness, love,or anything good that all you others had.
I see now,by my experience ,I was wrong.My Creator does love me and wants me.

[splendra]

The God I know loves us all want to take care of each of us. God gives to you as much as you seek Him and more.

[gravity]

I am of mixed blood (Ojibway (Native Canadian), Scottish, Irish) and still remember my mother always having a Bible & an Eagle Feather. When asked, I respectfully participate in many traditional Ojibway ceremonies & customs as well as Christian events.

I never thought I had a problem with the concept of a Higher Power until I started working on the steps. Believed, more or less, that there was a Higher Power, attended religious ceremonies when asked, prayed when I needed to (but often didn't acknowledge when my prayers were answered). But I had issues turning my alcoholism over to the Creator....I can take my will back too easily (and drink), why would He care about my drinking problem? Should I focus on Christianity or Ojibway traditions? Really over-analyzing & doubting.

I then started to think about how I actually made it through some of my toughest times, where did the strength come from? By thinking about my kids, remembering my late father & asking for his courage, putting my needs to the side & helping others, seeking counsel/inspiration from others (in person & in books), enjoying the beauty of nature (meditating), the simplest prayers (please get me home safe)...I could go on & on. I did have a moment of understanding once I put these thoughts together - the Creator is everywhere, in everything. I am never alone and only feel alone when I lose focus and become self-centered.

So that's my little journey. From taking my Higher Power for granted, full of doubt, confused about religion all the way to just accepting - right in front of me (and within me) all along. Simple!

[Rowan]

At times my faith in God is strong. But when I struggle with a heavy episode of depression, I have a difficult time having faith in anything. Although He is near, I can't reach him today. I keep asking for help anyway.

[paulmh]

I think one of the signs of growth in AA is when a person can overcome little things like the use of the word God. When I was able to achieve this small step, I started to feel more at peace, not only with my HP but with the people around me who happened to believe in God. Today I'm also able to say that my resentment about organized religion is gone. The idea that I used to have about churches being filled with hypocrites is replaced with the idea that there's always room for one more.

Thanks for that Music. If I had to put it in words my experience is the same. As I've said to you before, I'm still an atheist but I'm waiting for further instruction.

Great thread Rob.

I came across this last night, I'm moved to post it here.

This is from a book called “Islam – A Short History” by Karen Armstrong. It tickled me.

“The new sect would eventually be called islam (surrender). A muslim was a man or woman who had made this submission of their entire being to Allah and His demand that human beings behave towards one another with justice, equity and compassion. ……..The old tribal ethic had been egalitarian; Arabs did not approve of the idea of monarchy and it was abhorrent to them to grovel on the ground like a slave. But the prostrations were designed to counter the hard arrogance and self-sufficiency that was growing apace in Mecca. The postures of their bodies would re-educate the Muslims, teaching them to lay aside their pride and selfishness, and recall that before God they were nothing……..

Social justice was therefore the crucial virtue of Islam. Muslims were commanded as their first duty to build a community (ummah) characterised by practical compassion….. This was far more important than any doctrinal teaching about God. In fact the Quran has a negative view of theological speculation, which it calls zannah, self-indulgent whimsy about ineffable matters that nobody can ascertain one way or another. It seemed pointless to argue about such abstruse dogmas; far more crucial was the effort (jihad) to live in the way that God intended for human beings. The political and social welfare of the ummah would have sacramental value for Muslims. If the ummah prospered it was a sign that Muslims were living according to God’s will, and the experience of living in a truly Islamic community, which made this existential surrender to the divine, would give Muslims intimations of sacred transcendence. Consequently they would be affected as profoundly by any misfortune or humiliation suffered by the ummah as Christians by the spectacle of somebody blasphemously trampling on the Bible or ripping the Eucharistic host apart”

So - are we all jihadis now? :-)

Guess there's nothing new under the sun.

[CAPTAINZING2000]

Good Orderly Direction Comes To Mind

[gravity]

Originally Posted by Rowan

At times my faith in God is strong. But when I struggle with a heavy episode of depression, I have a difficult time having faith in anything. Although He is near, I can't reach him today. I keep asking for help anyway.

I do get in this state of mind when life's difficulties seem to pile up one on top of another - unrelenting. But even though I feel that I am just going through the motions (eg. praying in a kind of frustrated way, seeming lack of faith), my prayers are always eventually answered & that answer is revealed to me in the most beautiful & amazing ways (eg. catching one of my kids smiling at me with such unconditional love, someone reaching to me for help, even just a subtle feeling that everything will be okay). I'm also starting to accept that life's challenges happen for a reason, not to punish me. My faith is getting stronger but maybe not 100% yet (being honest). Getting there!

[Signal30]

Most people who have truly hit their bottom and are desperate, begin to open up upon concept of God. If you only surrender to alcohol and/or drugs you are only doing half the job. There are two things you must surrender to.

1) Alcohol

2) Your self-will

Successful members of the fellowship have surrendered both. It is how you obtain serenity, true acceptance, and real genuine happiness.


Tom

[paulmh]

Could not agree more Tom.

Of course, we all have to remember that we maintain our serenity, acceotance and happiness by preventing self-will from reasserting itself. Because when it did - back in the day - we didn't know we were victim to it. And it does most harm when it reasserts itself, and we imagine that we're doing G*d's will. Pride - defined by the ancients as "putting one's self on a level with G*d" - is a terrifically baleful defect.

[FightingIrish]

I have begun to notice a discernible difference between the times when I am aware of God's presence in and around me and when I am not.

Examples of when I am not are when I am entering stressful times, perhaps just before an important meeting at work, getting up in front of a group to speak, about to have a conversation with someone I know will not go well.

I read somewhere that fear/anxiety is a measure of the distance between us and God. If I do not believe that He has my best interests at heart and will guide me in whichever direction I can be of maximum service, I am then struck with fear, my vision goes tunnel, and everything turns grey and fluorescent.

If I simply remember to utter the phrase, "God is here, too", in whatever situation is leading me toward fear or stress, these feelings quickly dissipate.

Yesterday I used this while driving across Midtown Manhattan toward the end of rush hour. You'd be amazed.

[bugsworth]

Irish...lol Everytime I cross the GW or take the tunnels God is driving....

[Signal30]

Thanks paul, but I have to be careful when I'm around newcomers in meetings. I don't "tiptoe" around the "God issue". Some members believe that you do. Attraction, not promotion of the program of AA is what keeps it alive.

"When we became alcoholics, crushed by a self-imposed crises we could not postpone or evade, we had to fearlessly face the proposition that either God is everything or else He is nothing. God either is or He isn't. What was our choice to be?" (First Edition, BB, We Agnostics.)

The way I perceive that chapter, and the way I see it, is that for me, it is not "Good Orderly Direction", but Gods Orderly Direction. God being that higher power. Good orderly direction is a action, God is my higher power, (a noun). I gain good orderly direction by following Gods will to the best of my ability.

That's how I see it.



Tom

[ROFL]

This thread is very helpful. I am working step two right now and I knew this would be a hard one for me. I'm reading and understanding what is being said here, and I'm beginning to have a better concept of my own Higher Power, my God. But how do I internalize it? Make it my own? Make 'Him' more REAL to me? What do I need to DO to make this happen?

[CarolD]

Interesting thread....Thanks Rob!

In AA I returned to my childhood Sunday School
God of forgivness and love.

This gives me deep serenity and joy


Blessings