A Selfish Program

[Rob B]

I heard it twice this week at anniversary meetings no less, "This is a selfish program
I have a blue book with the title Alcoholics Anonymous on the cover. It tells me that selfishness is the root of all my trouble, it further goes on to say I must be rid of this selfishness or it will kill me. I have written enough inventory to see that this is my experience.

A friend of mine says it is a program of enlightened self interest, which is a lot different. It implies my ongoing recovery is directly related to how willing I am to give away what I have been so freely given.

AA is a selfless program for incredibly selfish people.

[Tommyh]

tell it Rob!

[Sugah]

Amen.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

[Kit]

Your right, Rob. Alcoholics are selfish, not the programs that help them. I'm glad AA is working out for you!

[FightingIrish]

Rob, thanks.

I just realized I haven't heard that one in a while. I used to hear it all the time when I was in rehab, it felt like every person who came in to talk to us said they were there for themselves and not us.

In a strange way though I believe it got the message across to me that doing service would be necessary for my sobriety. Selfishness was a language I could understand best at that time.

-M

[bob_sapp]

Rob thanks for mentioning that.... you're right. It never says in the BB that aa is "a selfish program." In fact we are told that freedom from self-will is the only path to freedom. I dunno where the "selfish program" BS got started, but I am glad you pointed it out.

[Gmoney]

Agreed.

[sugErspun]

I must have missed the part that says worrying and being concerned with myself will ensure immunity from drinking when all else fails

Oh wait - that would be working with other alcoholics - not a real selfish act if you ask me.


Tks Rob

[bob_sapp]

Someone should start a thread dedicated to BS ideas and sayings that go around meetings, yet are not in the BB and have nothing to do with alcoholics anonymous. I'm sure we could come up with a litany of examples.

On a another note, "Take what you want and leave the rest" .... correct me if I'm wrong, but that one isn't in the BB is it?

I have noticed (like other people have) that this has been interpreted by many as pertaining to the 12 steps of AA---- not what people say in meetings as was intended.

[nandm]

Originally Posted by Rob B

AA is a selfless program for incredibly selfish people.

Well put, thanks Rob

[Signal30]

SAY IT LOUD BROTHER!!!


How Bill W. refuted that 'A.A. is a SELFISH program.'

Another correspondent complained directly that he had been "disturbed to hear some A.A. speakers say, 'A.A. is a selfish program.'" The co-founder's response was eventually published in "The A.A. Way of Life":

I can see why you are disturbed.... The word "selfish" ordinarily implies that one is acquisitive, demanding, and thoughtless of the welfare of others. Of course, the A.A. way of life does not at all imply such undesirable traits.

What do these speakers mean? Well, any theologian will tell you that the salvation of his own soul is the highest vocation that a man can have. Without salvation - however we may define this - he will have little or nothing. For us in A.A. there is even more urgency.

If we cannot or will not achieve sobriety, then we become truly lost, right in the here and now. We are of no value to anyone, including ourselves, until we find salvation from alcohol. Therefore, our own recovery and spiritual growth have to come first - a right and necessary kind of self-concern.
From "Not-God, A History of Alcoholics Anonymous", pp. 243-244, by Ernest Kurtz.



A tabulation of words in the Big Book which contain the root "self".
Word Group Self-Word Count

Character Virtues
self-control 1
self-discipline 2
self-respect 1
self-searching 1
unselfish 1
unselfishness 2
Total 8

Character Defects
self-centered 3
self-centeredness 3
self-deception 1
self-destruction 1
self-esteem 7 *
selfish 11
selfishly 1
selfishness 3
self-justification 1
self-pity 11
self-pitying 1
self-seeker 1
self-seeking 4
self-supporting 1
Total 49

Other
self-appraisal 3
self-confidence 2
self-confident 1
self-conscious 1
self-consciousness 1
self-evident 1
self-imposed 1
self-propulsion 1
self-reliance 3
self-revealing 1
self-sacrifice 2
self-sacrificing 2
self-sufficiency 1
self-will 5
Total 25

Prepositions
herself 2
himself 75
itself 7
myself 22
ourselves 1
self 5
thyself 2
yourself 25
Total 139

Overall Total 221


From above posted site. Good stuff

A.A. is NOT a selfish program


Tom

[bugsworth]

Good topic!

What always strikes me as odd is that there are so many phrases kicked around the rooms including aa is a selfish program that people say are not aa. Then where do they come from and why are people saying them?

I was at a meeting last week where a young girl was saying how she can't make 90 in 90, it set off a huge debate during the meeting. A guy (bb man) stated that 90 in 90 was not aa it came from treatment centers. Well this was a surprise to me as my first sponsor told me to do 90 in 90. I hear it all the time...almost every begginers meeting I attend. I also see newcomers here being advised to do 90 in 90. Is it aa or not? I don't know, I did it and it served its purpose for me. It can be confusing for the newcomer.

As for aa being a selfish program...semantics at its best.

[Rob B]

Anybody interested in seeing what our basic text has to say on most of the nifty little one liners thrown around the fellowship should check out the following link: That Ain't in the Book

As far as semantics go, I respectfully disagree, words have tremendous power, to influence, help, or even harm.

[bugsworth]

Rob, I agree words do have tremendous power. My point was an argument can be made for both sides. My first sponsor told me that aa comes before everything else, she said aa not sobriety there is a difference. I too have heard in the rooms that aa is a selfish program...do I agree...no, but for some it can be difficult to weed out what is aa and what is not.

[Tazman53]

What always strikes me as odd is that there are so many phrases kicked around the rooms including aa is a selfish program that people say are not aa. Then where do they come from and why are people saying them?

Bugs that is an easy one, they come from people, one person said it, others heard it, related to it and repeated it, kind of like a snowball rolling down a hill. If heard in the proper context many of these statements fit in with the program, taken out of context they don't fit in the program.

The best example I can think of is "Take what you want and leave the rest"! This in the context of what is said at a meaning is darn good solid advice. I am sure there is a lot of stuff you have heard said at meetings that are not program, but are simply someones opinion or advice, sometimes it is good stuff that you or someone else may be able to use, or it may be junk, we need to decide whether we should take that with us or leave it.

The sad thing is people like that slogan and take it out of context and to fit thier own rejection of parts of the program apply it to the first 164 pages of the BB saying that the phrase "Take what you want and leave the rest." applies to the program! All one has to do is read how it works to see that is a bunch of hooie!:

Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program.

Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.

Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. we asked His protection and care with complete abandon.

The above from the BB dispels any idea that we should take what we want and leave the rest from the program and expect all of the promises to come true.

A guy (bb man) stated that 90 in 90 was not aa it came from treatment centers.

The guy was right, I and many others have done thourough searches on all AA approved literature and there is not one single mention of 90 in 90 anywhere. But this is one of those things where "Take what you want and leave the rest." does apply, no it is not program, it is from treatment centers because studies have shown that the best way to break an old habit and establish a new habit is to not do the old one for 90 days straight and to do the one you want to establish for 90 days.

Is it aa or not?

No it is not AA, but it is a darn good piece of advice for anything, dieting, exercising, or recovery!

BTW Rob I totally concur!!!!

[Tazman53]

what is aa and what is not.

If you can not find it in writing in AA approved literature according to my sponsor it is not AA, it could be excellent advice, but not AA advice.

In the BB where step 11 is covered there is a paragraph that says:

If circumstances warrant, we ask our wives or friends to join us in morning meditation. If we belong to a religious denomination which requires a definite morning devotion, we attend to that also. If not members of religious bodies, we sometimes select and memorize a few set prayers which emphasize the principles we have been discussing. There are many helpful books also. Suggestions about these may be obtained from one's priest, minister, or rabbi. Be quick to see where religious people are right. Make use of what they offer.

This spells out that other "helpful books" can and should be a part of our AA recovery, AA approved or not.

[bugsworth]

Taz I appreciate your reply. I agree that in the last 70 years there is a wealth of information at our finger tips BUT the quote from the bb that states "Be quick to see where religious people are right. Make use of what they offer." makes me uncomfortable since aa is not a religious program...or is it? Sounds a bit contradictory. JMO

[paulmh]

My own personal "bugbear" (sorry bugs!) is -

"If you don't share you don't care".

[jimhere]

Bugs,
Ninety in ninety came from treatment centers to Narcotics Anonymous to AA.

Many of the terms, phrases, and slogans that we here in contemporary AA cames to us from either treatment centers or NA. I was reading through NA's basic text and saw a lot of what we hear in AA meetings today.
Jim

[jimhere]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

Taz I appreciate your reply. I agree that in the last 70 years there is a wealth of information at our finger tips BUT the quote from the bb that states "Be quick to see where religious people are right. Make use of what they offer." makes me uncomfortable since aa is not a religious program...or is it? Sounds a bit contradictory. JMO

Bugs,
Please don't use that phrase to kick off one your "AA is not religious" thread hi-jackings.

That phrase comes from the EleventhStep instructions. Bill is offering a suggestion that the INDIVIDUAL member may find useful in his or her PERSONAL spiritual life.
Jim

[RufusACanal]

I truly enjoy this topic when it comes round each time. Purpose, is the force behind my use of words and rarely is the sole purpose focused on communication. When I want to make a point, I can weave the words to suit that singular purpose, regardless of what that purpose is.

A “selfish program" is a reality to the new person, how could it not be? In early recover I clung to the idea that my not drinking was like drawing breath; to drink again was to die. If that is not selfish I don't know what is. Having only a fleeting knowledge of recovery, I was working an entirely selfish program, my singular fight for survival. Every man, woman or child who reaches for the extended hand of AA, is really only searching for the continuation of life without pain. Selfishness was a survival skill that I needed to insure my life; selflessness was not in my vocabulary, yet.

As each day came and went without a drink, I began to clear away the fog that had transfixed my mind for so many years; I became teachable. By going to more than ninety meetings in ninety days, I showed a resolve to grasp willingness and accept that I had been at death’s door and that the journey onward was to find a meaningful life. It took repetition to pound the message through to the inner man. Meetings provided a reconnection with my fellow man and a reintroduction to normalcy. In those early days, my world was small, so small that I needed a guide to find the sure footing. That guide was a Sponsor, another man who had been down the same path and who knew a way out of the pain and suffering I had endured for so many years. We would go on to learn together how to live one day at a time, how to “think”, how to surrender, how to simply be a part of the fabric of society. I was still working a “selfish program” and I would continue to work a selfish program until I learned to be selfless.

The question is not one of a “selfish program”, but rather when does one begin to grasp the significance of working a selfless program of recovery? Passing through the door of a new life means you no longer wrestle with the drink question, it has been lifted. You have faced your demons and those you have harmed, settled your debts and made reparations. You now have a practiced system of facing your defects of character and shortcomings through daily inventory and personal action. You have communications with a Power greater than you; sometimes clear, sometimes hazy, but communications nevertheless. With your growth you are now responsible to give to those who walk into our halls and our rooms the message of freedom you were given. You are no longer “working a program”, but rather you are living a new life that is the true reprieve from death. You have recovered from a seemingly hopeless condition. You daily guarantee the continuation of this new life with the extended hand, the extended effort and the giving of unconditional love by one who has been renewed, thereby bringing the journey full circle.

[Music]

AA is not a selfish program but the way I work it IS!! If any of you think for one minute, I'd get up at 0200 to go out in the snow just to sober you up, you've got another think coming. I do it for my own sobriety. Whether you stay sober or not is your business, not mine. I remind you of the conversation Bill had with Lois in the kitchen when Bill was frustrated because the guys he was talking to weren't staying sober. Lois reminded him that even though he hadn't had success with others, he was sober because of his efforts.

AA is a secular program, unless of course I practice it religiously.

[Sheryl85]

Originally Posted by Music

AA is not a selfish program but the way I work it IS!! If any of you think for one minute, I'd get up at 0200 to go out in the snow just to sober you up, you've got another think coming. I do it for my own sobriety. Whether you stay sober or not is your business, not mine. I remind you of the conversation Bill had with Lois in the kitchen when Bill was frustrated because the guys he was talking to weren't staying sober. Lois reminded him that even though he hadn't had success with others, he was sober because of his efforts.

AA is a secular program, unless of course I practice it religiously.

I agree with Music.

The way it was explained to me is I have to do it for ME! I can't do it for my child, my husband, etc. I've got to do it for me and me alone. (Anyone you can get sober for you can get drunk because of...) Also, this was a very painful lesson that taught me that if I put anything in front of my Program (which is my conduit to God) and start giving that more importance (like a job, hobby, etc.), I will start to suffer because of it. I nearly went insane again because I was trying to fit AA into my life and not the other way around (fitting my life into AA). When I do that, I cut off that connection to God that only this program allowed me to find by working the AA principles. (It talks about being cut off from the "sunshine of the spirit" in the BB.) So for me it IS a selfish program because I've got to work it for MY benefit...not yours, mine. We can talk about how I am duly obligated to give away that which was freely given to me on another occasion.

[RufusACanal]

Think of the process to recover in stages. Sheryl hits the mark in that we are barely babes to a new life. Of course we are selfish! We do not have the capacity to be selfless. Did you think that the admission to a fantastic new life was free or that there was some small door in your head that allowed easy access for pouring new thinking and new behaviors in to correct insanity? Of course not, you were a slobbering pile of humanity looking for the easist escape routine from the agony of your plight when you came to AA.

[RufusACanal]

When I say "you", I am saying the new person.