Step 4 & 5 Concern

[gravity]

I have a question/concern regarding steps 4 & 5. I am in the process of doing a "searching & fearless moral inventory" but I find myself holding back on detailed specifics in some instances (for now, I am addressing these matters by generalizing). These specifics are very personal in nature and I really do not trust another human being with this information. I have no issues with admitting these details to my Creator & myself.

I was originally considering admitting my wrongs to my sponsor (still may) but, like everyone else, he is fallible. I can't be certain that another human being won't hit a weak moment in the future (eg. start drinking) and my personal information will be disclosed (I live in a small city, gossip gets around quickly). Plus, some information is very humiliating. While I am concerned about my own wellbeing, I also worry because others would be affected if this information got out.

Is it okay to keep certain specifics between my Creator & myself and just disclose them to another human being in a more general way? A closely related question, why is is so important to disclose this information to another human being? While I intend to do this, I am having a tough time seeing the full value in providing every last detail to another person - admitting it to my Creator & myself seems to be the key.

I am trying to do my moral inventory to the best of my ability but I find myself getting a bit hung up on this matter. Any help is appreciated!

[best]

If it is mine and mine alone... I would share.
The twisting and turning you have inside wondering what you should or shouldn't say or do will be gone once you let it go by telling another.
As for things that can harm another...things we both did... I would hold that back so not to bring harm to another by my good intentions.

[Zoobear]

In a word, no. Why would you want to unload the garbage and keep the worst things? I also had a hard time on my 5th step. I thought I was so important that everyone wanted to know the dirt on me. I was scared to death that even one person on this earth knew what an ******* I really was. I went to a mens retreat where people take your 5th step and dont even know your name, I was still afraid.
I finally did it. I told the worst thing first. The rest was easy. Now I often share these secrets in open meetings, I have nothing to fear or hide. I am free!

[sugErspun]

I would say to complete your fourth step before you worry about the fifth step.

But to address your concern as best I can (based on what I went through) - when the time comes, voice your concerns to your sponsor.

I too thought my fourth step was unique and terrifying - took two full days to read through it and discuss with my sponsor. (and to start my 8th step list)

He only had one real comment about my fourth step as a whole - he said "After you hear two or three of these, they pretty much all sound the same". Once again, I am not so different afterall.

Still - I think your trust issue that you have with your sponsor should be discussed with him/her


Keep up the good work!

[Zoobear]

We protect others in the 9th step, not the 5th.
Man up and tell it all.

[Rob B]

Any resistance in a 4th step has everything to do with your 1st step. I would revisit this. You are either going to follow directions or balk. There are some 1st step considerations posted on the thread Problem Drinker VS. Real Alcoholic that may help you.

Before late stage alcoholism completely destroyed me, I was a teacher. My last two years in education I would go home drink until I passed out and wet my bed. Everytime I drank I would wake up in my own urine. At this time I was running a group for emotionally disturbed kids. Every morning I would wake up in my pee soaked bed, shower, put on my coat and tie and go to work, showing troubled kids how to make better choices. I hated myself more than words can describe.

I was never going to tell anyone about this, ever. At 5 months sober I heard a man at a meeting decribe this experience. I could not believe it. I share this with you because I now understand what it means to not regret the past and I know how hearing this man changed me, I thought I was alone, a disgusting disgrace of a human being. We are only as dark as our secrets.

In doing a brutally honest 4th step I got free of this. How Free do you want to be? Nothing counts but thoroughness and HONESTY

By the way, since I have been sober I have not peed the bed, this may not seem like a big deal to some, but to me it is a gift that I give thanks for every day I wake up.

PM me if I can be of help

[RufusACanal]

Would you like to do a Fifth Step with one of us? PM someone here and get it done. You have not done anything that any of the men here have not. No one said the path to a new life would be easy. The men who responded above have extended their hand, take it and get to work.

[nandm]

The information in our step study may be helpful to you . Here is the link to the 4th step area.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/step-4/

[phunky rich]

great post sugerspun...continuing to think I'm different will kill me.

gravity, if you are at all religious, perhaps you should consider doing your 5th step with someone affiliated with your particular religion.

[29a]

What comes to me is a question I was asked when I first came into the rooms...

"Are you willing to go to any lengths to stop drinking?"

I didn't finish a fourth step my first go around, and I got drunk.
I did it and my fifth the next time, and by gods grace I've been sober and happy ever since.

The 3rd step states "made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of god..."

What that says to me, and I'm just a drunk so who knows, is that i put faith in god, or whatever you call it, to take care of me and make sure I come to no harm. If you've done that, you don't have to put faith in a fallable human because gods in charge.

The big book has several suggestions for people who make candidates for a 5th step partner. Have you thought about and therapist or dr?

Going through a 5th step with my sponsor was the best thing I ever did. It allowed me to have the first honest relationship with another human being that i've ever had. From it, i've been able to build honest relationships with others and have finally joined the human race.

it's normal to be scared, but the rewards are inumerable.

[NOMOMERLOTMAMMA]

Hi Gravity,

First off, Rob, thank you for your post.

Gravity, I'm currently working on my fourth and HAVE been for awhile. I'm very close to finishing. There's stuff on there that even my partner doesn't know about. I have found by working over my defects with my sponsor, not only has my faith grown stronger (finally being honest is a relief)but also I realize that by knowing what my defects are, guess what? I don't have to have them anymore! This is the promise of the fifth step that I am looking forward to.

I don't have to drink over anything again..

Keep at it.

Karen

[nandm]

I found this to be useful when working the steps, I hope you do too.

Judith

Step Four ~ Part 1: Questions
1. Do you feel complete about your work on the first three steps?

2. What are your hopes and expectations for this step?
If you've gone through this process before, how did it benefit you?

3. What are your expectations from your sponsor?

4. Have you and your sponsor come up with a plan of action?
Do you have a specific approach?
How about timeline?

Step Four ~ Part 2: Questions
1. What kinds of feelings are coming up as you work on this Step?

2. Do you find that you have barriers to being "rigorously" honest? If so, what tools do you use to overcome this reluctance?

3. Do you notice a difference in your character defects when you're abstinent vs. when you're not?

4. Do you see the function of some of these "character defects" in your life? How have they served you in the past? Has that changed?

Step Four ~ Part 3: Questions

1. What ideas do you have about how to stay motivated? If you've done this Step before, what has worked for you in the past?

2. What experiences do you have in other areas of your life that you can draw from in order to continue working on this Step until you are finished?

3. When do you ask for help working this Step?

4. How do you nurture yourself while you are doing this Step? Are you able to be gentle with yourself? Are you able to be compassionate with yourself?

Step Four ~ Part 4: Questions
1. What does the statement, "We are as sick as our secrets" mean to you? Have you discovered that as you've worked Step Four? Have you felt any relief?

2. As you do this intense interior work, do you find yourself feeling differently towards yourself? Do you feel differently towards others? If so, how have your attitudes changed?

3. Can you seen any humor in your past behaviors?

4. What are you like when you feel the best about yourself?
__________________

[nandm]

Questions Step 5, Part 1

A. How long have I been living alone with my secrets (my wrongs)?

B. How do I feel about admitting my wrongs (my secrets) to God, myself, and another human being?

C. Am I ready to give up my secrets (my wrongs)?


Questions: Step 5, Part 2

A. Do you have the feeling that you´ve been different from others, that if others really knew you, they would reject you, or they would cringe? Do you struggle to be acceptable to others when you are around them?

B. How is Step 5 about trust, and where are you in this business of trusting others?


Step Five ~ Part 3: Questions

1. What am I afraid of, regarding step 5?

2. How did your relationship with a Higher Power change after doing the fifth step, and if you haven't done it yet, how do you hope it will change? And this question goes for agnostics, atheists, and those who already have faith.

Step Five ~ Part 4: Questions

A. What's keeping you from doing these two action steps, 4 and 5?

B. How can your sponsor assist you in moving through these blocks to do these two steps?

C. Have you read about the promises and is that what you want and are you willing to "go to any lengths" to experience those promises?

The above information came from our Step study forum. For more information on the steps please refer to that area.

[Pinkcuda]

I'm going to second 29A on this one. You may need to revisit the 3rd step.
You made a decision to turn your will and your life over the care of God as you understand him.
After that your life is in Gods hands and you have no need balk at any of the rest of the steps.
You're in good hands here. Go with it.

[Music]

Originally Posted by gravity

Is it okay to keep certain specifics between my Creator & myself and just disclose them to another human being in a more general way? A closely related question, why is is so important to disclose this information to another human being? While I intend to do this, I am having a tough time seeing the full value in providing every last detail to another person - admitting it to my Creator & myself seems to be the key.

I am trying to do my moral inventory to the best of my ability but I find myself getting a bit hung up on this matter. Any help is appreciated!

If your "certain specifics" are that personal, take them to a priest, or a drug or alcohol counselor who will keep them private. The reason we take this step with another human being has to do with "humility." God already knows what we've done. It's necessary for us to verbally relay this information to another human being to experience the humility. If your aim is to do these steps to the best of your ability, stop making excuses and get to it. You aren't that good at being that bad, nor are you so unique that you need to be different than any other curb hugging drunk.

[Signal30]

It is important to consider your options of who to talk to, and may take a little time to consider. But no matter who we admit our wrongs to, the most important action is the willingness, thoroughness, and honesty, that must come from you!

The BB and the 12&12 give examples of the following people other than your sponsor you may consider, when admitting you defects...

• Someone ordained by an established religion. (Priests, ministers, etc.) Even if you do not belong to a specific religion.

• A closed-mouthed understanding friend. Meaning a good friend that you know will not gossip to others.

• A doctor or psychologist. These people take an oath of confidentially, and their job is to help you.

• A trusted family member, (wives, husbands, parents etc.). But not disclosing all information due to the risk that could hurt them or make them unhappy. “We have no right to save our own skin at another persons expense.”

If there was ever a time when your sponsor can be beneficial, this is it. If you have made your sobriety top priority, are going to meetings, and working the steps, then a sponsor is one that is there to help share their experience, strength, and hope. Maintaining a close relationship with your sponsor is important because they are the ones working the steps with you. They, like you, are an alcoholic!

Remember, we are in a fellowship with one common problem. We are powerless over alcohol. What you are experiencing or have experienced, your fellow members of AA have also in one way or another.

If you have truly given yourself to your Higher Power when you did the Third Step and listed your resentments and fears in the Fourth Step, then you should be ready and willing, to admit these character defects in your inventories to another. This is the first action in Step Five, (the second action is review and reflection.). Remember when doing your Fear Inventory, you asked God to remove the fears you listed. This means all fears. This step requires fearlessness and honesty. In other words, you should give the God of your understanding the fear of revealing it to another person. That’s what you were taught in the Third Step. Remember, half measures avail nothing!



Tom

[gravity]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to respond to my question. Honestly, some of the responses fall into the category of what I needed to hear, not what I wanted to hear.

I have to admit that I may have a problem with “doing whatever it takes” to stay sober if this means risking my family & my career. Having said that, I think I may be overly concerned about the potential impacts should my inventory become public but I tend to do that with anything that even remotely threatens my family & livelihood. I also accept that I do have trust issues when it comes to other human beings. I’ve seen people fall down too many times to believe with certainty that confidentiality will be maintained. I’m even careful in AA meetings.

Thanks for all the valuable suggestions regarding who I will discuss my inventory with in step 5. Oddly, I find that the people I fully trust are older family members (decades of sobriety & AA experience) but I don’t know if I really want to burden them with information about me and other family members who they love. I'm still considering my sponsor. I suppose I will figure it out when I actually get to step 5! - I see that I was getting ahead of myself in my first post.

I’m still trying to get a better handle on the connection between “turning our will & lives over to the care of God as we understood Him” and “admitting to…another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.” Intuitively, the relationship just isn’t there for me. I re-read the applicable sections of the BB & reviewed information in “12 Steps & 12 Traditions” and the Step Study Forum and I am getting a bit of a feel for why it’s important…I just don’t see the higher power connection. Maybe it’s just one of those things I have to take on faith.

For now, I'm going to focus on doing my step 4 work as thoroughly & honestlly as possible. I'm meeting with my sponsor in the next few days to see if I'm on the right track and will also discuss these matters with him.

Thanks again. This is such a learning experience!

[jimhere]

All this "trust issue" stuff comes to us through therapists and the treatment centers.

To reference the book Alcoholics Anonymous, First Edition: It says that the person who is hearing The Fifth Step should realize we are on a life and death errand. The question I would ask you is this: Do you realize that you are on a life a death errand?, that is if you be an alcoholic of the hopeless variety that absolutely knows that they need the Power of God to recover.

This is not a therapeutic exercise. It is an effort to get a new attitude towards and a new relationship with the Creator and to discover and GET RID OF, not cope with, not deal with, but get rid of what stands in the way of that. Ironically, the only way that can be done is to first connect with another human being.

I say this out of personal experience. I withheld one thing from my first Fifth Step. Although the term "secrets taken to the grave" isn't used in the book, it is implied. What I withheld was something of a sexual nature. In the dozens of Fifth Steps I have heard since, it seems that everyone's secret they want to take to the grave is sexual in nature. When I was eleven, I found out sex felt good. An older boy told me that it felt even better with girls, so I tried to experiment on one of my sisters. I didn't know enough about the act to actually carry it out, but I buried that and kept it deep inside for years. Man was I ashamed. This what I withheld on my first Fifth Step. I kept it withheld until I was almost three years sober. One day at meeting where Step Five was the topic, it came to my mind that what I thought I was going to take to the grave was actually going to take me to the grave if I didn't tell someone else. So I called up a good AA friend and asked him to go to coffee. At that point is wasn't about "trust issues," I absolutely knew that I was on a life and death errand, and I have heard it said that you can't save your face and your ass at the same time. When I shared my dirty little secret, he said "I did that too." I found out I wasn't that unique.

Sharing that freed me up to share with others. One woman told me that my sharing that helped her to forgive her brothers. I share it with the guys I sponsor and I've heard many similiar instances from them. My life is an open book and I'll share any part of it with anyone if I think it might be helpful.

We are all God's kids and all this deal is is one of God's kids that has made some mistakes sharing with another one of God's kids that has made some mistakes.
Jim

By the way, as others have offered, feel free to pm me if I can be helpful

[barb dwyer]

When I was doing my fourth I had the same thing -

the "ooo. Don't know if I oughta tell that one" thing.

Sothere were a few items of intense joy that I left out.

Then I did my fifth step.

The relief was so ... miraculous ... so freeing -

I sat down right there -
and wrote out the items that I'd neglected =
and told them to my sponsor right then and there.

I have never been the same.

But -

I *also* know -

that before I'd done the fifth and expereicned all that everyone was telling me was the truth .... I could not know that.

So I know there's nothing I can say that will convince you to go ahead and put them down -Especially THOSE THINGS. Because those few things - are the ones.

Those things - the ones you don't think anyone has the right to hear -
are the ones that are making you stay the same.

Those very things are why the major change you hear everyone talking about
and want so bad ... haven't happened for you.

Yet.

[Signal30]

Your not "airing out your dirty laundry" publically. Just with another person. It's understandable to be cautious. Both the BB and the 12&12 tell you that. The the BB also says not to use it as a excuse.

Pray about it. By Gods will, the path will be revealed. The correct decision will be made.


Tom

[Tazman53]

Man this is some great stuff!!!!!

When I was writing my inventory I kept getting stuck, I just kept thinking "There is no reason to even write that down, I would then read the following and ask myself if I wanted what was promised after the 5th step?

We pocket our pride and go to it, illuminating every twist of character, every dark cranny of the past. Once we have taken this step, withholding nothing, we are delighted. We can look the world in the eye. We can be alone at perfect peace and ease. Our fears fall from us. We begin to feel the nearness of our Creator. We may have had certain spiritual beliefs, but now we begin to have a spiritual experience. The feeling that the drink problem has disappeared will often come strongly. We feel we are on the Broad Highway, walking hand in hand with the Spirit of the Universe.

I wanted those promises to come true, so I wrote it down. They did come true after my 5th step!

Here is something to read and ponder:

The best reason first: If we skip this vital step, we may not overcome drinking. Time after time newcomers have tried to keep to themselves certain facts about their lives. Trying to avoid this humbling experience, they have turned to easier methods. Almost invariably they got drunk. Having persevered with the rest of the program, they wondered why they fell. We think the reason is that they never completed their housecleaning. They took inventory all right, but hung on to some of the worst items in stock. They only thought they had lost their egoism and fear; they only thought they had humbled themselves. But they had not learned enough of humility, fearlessness and honesty, in the sense we find it necessary, until they told someone else all their life story.

I know a guy who had over 10 years sober, he drank again, I do not recall how long he stayed out, but he said when he came back in and did the steps anew with his sponsor he discovered why he had drank again, it was over the guilt and shame he had over something he had not shared with his sponsor during his first 5th step!

We pocket our pride and go to it, illuminating every twist of character, every dark cranny of the past. Once we have taken this step, withholding nothing, we are delighted.

This is hard to believe, but the most freeing moment I have expereinced in my life was to get 40 years of shame and guilt off of my shoulders, I was at last FREE!!!!

I had heard old timers tell new people when asked "When is the right time to do your 4th & 5th step?", that the right time to do them is "When you want the pain to stop!", well as usual they were right, the pain was gone and I was free!

Jim I want to thank you for sharing what you shared here, it has allowed me to share what I have never shared with anyone but my HP & my sponsor, yes mine was sexual as well! My sponsor after we had prayed before doing my 5th step asked me "Okay, let me hear your deepest, darkest secret!" I looked him dead square in the eye and told him, that what I was going to tell him was the only thing I had not written down...... When I was about 11 or 12 my younger brother and I one time tried gay sex, we immediately decided that it was not a good idea even before we started.

I had carried that secret for over 40 years, the weight of the world lifted off of my shoulders. My brother and I have since both laughed about it realizing that it was nothing but 2 horny boys thinking we would get our jollies and instead discovering that we were both way to straight to even do it!!! LOL

[Music]

Call me naive, but I have faith in, and believe in AA and that what goes around, comes around.

My sponsor is the one guy in this world, who knows more about me than anyone else, except maybe my parish priest, and at this point, they're on about equal footing. To be an effective sponsor, he has to know who he's dealing with. There's good reason for a sponsor to know all so he can know what to look for, and listen for.

There's a reason why honesty is talked about so much in the first paragraph or so of How It Works. Honesty is important!! Especially me being honest about myself, and then sharing that honesty so I don't BS myself into thinking all is well. At that point, I'm resting on my laruels.

The reason I have faith in AA is because if someone breaks a confidence of mine, they're heading for hard times. It's not my program that's in jeopardy. It's theirs!! I've seen more than one person living in hell on earth here in AA because they broke a confidence, and some ended up back out there. There's a price to pay for breaking AA non-laws, and that little bit of attention, or time in the lime light I may receive by sharing a few seconds of gossip, ain't worth the price. Bottom line is I don't care who knows I'm an alcoholic, and I share whatever I'm comfortable sharing at meetings. What others do with that information is none of my business.

[Tazman53]

Music my sponsor has told me and I have found it to be good advice that when I share in a meeting to do so in general terms and not all the gory details unless they are really needed. He says that details are for one on one exchanges.

BTW my sponsor may know more about me then I know about myself! LOL

[collinsmi]

I'd get that stuff out. It won't be a good fourth unless you do, and your hesitation will probably bleed over into the rest of your step work. I had similar concerns when I was doing my 4th. On our weekly meetings, I'd float one or two of these things past my sponsor at a time. Then I got them down on paper.

What I figured out later was these secrets weren't a big deal unless I make them one. Hell, my sponsor's probably forgotten about them. They're still embarrassing and I don't share about them in meetings but I've talked about them with a sponsee (who later went out) and I won't hesitate to talk to other sponsees about them when the time is right and it will serve a purpose.

[Music]

Originally Posted by Tazman53

Music my sponsor has told me and I have found it to be good advice that when I share in a meeting to do so in general terms and not all the gory details unless they are really needed. He says that details are for one on one exchanges.

BTW my sponsor may know more about me then I know about myself! LOL

Hey Taz,
I sobered up in Virginia. You've got good sponsors down there. He's absolutely right!