Just for curious reasons....

[Signal30]

Did you ever wonder how many times in the first 164 pages of the Big Book it tells you in various phrases to give God your character defects and shortcomings, and by living by Gods will not ours???


Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.


Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.


Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.


Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

Those are just the examples in the 12 steps. I was just curious how many times the book mentions to ask God to remove all the "bad stuff", and how many times it says to do by Gods will not ours? An actual number. Yeah I know it's not important to have the factual number, I was just curious.

I do know that it says it alot BECAUSE IT'S TRUE, AND IT WORKS.

But if anyone does have a number I'm curious.


Tom

[kevin 311]

278 -- but I'll let you do the fact-checking

this does remind me I have some BB reading that I said I would do

[bugsworth]

Wow, 278 times?

The enormous amount of times that the bb tells us to do Gods will not ours, begs us to ask the question...

Why do we say aa is NOT religious?

The facts don't lie.

Please don't stone me...just asking an honest question.

The teachings of aa came directly from The Oxford Group, Bill Wilson gave credit to the Group and Sam Shoemaker...

" It was from Sam shoemaker, that we absorbed most of the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous, steps that express the heart of AA's way of life. Sam Shoemaker had given us the concrete knowledge of what we could do about it, he passed on the spiritual keys by which we were liberated. The early AA got its ideas of self-examination, acknowledgement of character defects, restitution for harm done, and working with others straight form the Oxford Group and directly from Sam Shoemaker, their former leader in America, and from nowhere else."

The Oxford Group was known for its ideolgy of a world run by God control.

The history of the roots of aa, and from whom Bill Wilson received his ideas is paramount to truly understand what is contained in the bb.

[nandm]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

The enormous amount of times that the bb tells us to do Gods will not ours, begs us to ask the question...

Why do we say aa is NOT religious?

The facts don't lie.

Please don't stone me...just asking an honest question.

.

I think the answer to that question lies in the Foreword page xiii sentance 12 and page xiv sentance 3-4

We are not an organization in the conventional sense of the word.........We are not allied with any particular faith, sect, or denomination, nor do we oppose anyone. We simply wish to be helpful to those who are afflicted.

What comes to your mind when you hear the word religion? One definition is:

A religion is a set of common beliefs and practices generally held by a group of people, often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.

Now what comes to mind when you hear the word spiritual? Here is one definition of spiritual

Spirituality, in a narrow sense, concerns itself with matters of the spirit. Spiritual matters are those involving humankind's ultimate nature, not merely as material biological organisms, but as beings with a relationship to that which is beyond both time and the material world. The spiritual is contrasted with the physical and the earth. A perceived sense of connection forms a central defining characteristic of spirituality — connection to a metaphysical reality greater than oneself, which may include an emotional experience of religious awe and reverence, or such states as satori or Nirvana. Equally importantly, spirituality relates to matters of sanity and of psychological health. Spirituality is the personal, subjective dimension of religion, particularly that which pertains to liberation or salvation

So for me, when I add it all up, I interpret the AA program to fall under spiritual program rather than religious program.

I think the problem comes in when people assume that the word God refers to the Judeo Christian God of the Bible. It is the conception of the word that is the problem. But that is where people need to further understand the meaning of the word God

Conceptions of God vary widely. Theologians and philosophers have studied countless conceptions of God since the dawn of civilization. The Abrahamic conceptions of God include the trinitarian view of Christians, the Kabbalistic definition of Jewish mysticism, and the Islamic concept of God. The dharmic religions differ in their view of the divine: views of God in Hinduism vary by region, sect, and caste from monotheistic to polytheistic; the view of God in Buddhism is almost non-theist. In modern times, some more abstract concepts have been developed, such as process theology and open theism. Conceptions of God held by individual believers vary so widely that there is no clear consensus on the nature of God.[7] The contemporaneous French philosopher Michel Henry has however proposed a phenomenological approach and definition of God as phenomenological essence of Life.

Just my thoughts. I know there will be people who disagree with me on this but I find it dangerous to associate AA with religion as I know I would never have even given AA a try if I had believed it to be a religion. I had enough of organized religion before I even was 12 years old, and had built a big resentment against the notion. If the authors of the Big Book had intended it to be associated with religion they would have done so at the start.

[nandm]

Please don't stone me...just asking an honest question

No stones, people are only stoned to death in the Bible.... :rof (disclamer; I am trying to make an attempt at humor here and am not intending it to be a slam against the Bible or those who believe in it. I do respect each persons right to their beliefs and do personally believe the Bible does have some useful guidelines for living and many truths in it)
I appreciate your frankness and honest discussion. I am not wanting to get into a theological war and don't think you do either. I am just enjoying discussing our individual thoughts on the subject. I do respect the right for others to have differing opinions than mine. I feel in the end I may need to do some revisions of my opinions who knows. Rigidity is for dead people (rigor mortis)...and I am not dead yet....:rof

[bugsworth]

Nandm, I appreciate the humor!

I will start by saying I appreciate your point of view and as always you deliver it kindly, for that I thank you.

I will, however disagree....

Any "program" that mentions turning your will and life over to God is Religious. AA is the direct decendant of the Oxford Group, no getting around it even Wilson himself stated that AA had a religious element to it.

Frank Buchman the Oxford Groups leader was insane....

Read what he said about Hitler...

Dr Frank Nathan Daniel Buchman, leader of the revivalist Oxford Group, suggest infinite possibilities for remaking the world and putting it under "God Control".

Dr. Frank Buchman states….

"I thank Heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler, who built a front line of defense against the anti-Christ of Communism, " he said today in his book-lined office in the annexe of Calvary Church, Fourth Ave and 21st St.

"My barber in London told me Hitler saved Europe from Communism. That's how he felt. Of course, I don't condone everything the Nazis do. Anti-Semitism? Bad, naturally. I suppose Hitler sees a Karl Marx in every Jew.

"But think what it would mean to the world if Hitler surrendered to the control of God. Or Mussolini. Or any dictator. Through such a man God could control a nation overnight and solve every last, bewildering problem...

"The world needs the dictatorship of the living spirit of God. I like to put it this way. God is a perpetual broadcasting station and all you need to do is tune in. What we need is a supernatural network of live wires across the world to every last man, in every last place, in every last situation...

"The world won't listen to God but God has a plan for every person, for every nation. Human ingenuity is not enough. That is why the isms are pitted against each other and blood falls.

"... Human problems aren't economic. They're moral and they can't be solved by immoral measures. They could be solved within a God-controlled democracy, or perhaps I should say a theocracy, and they could be solved through a God-controlled Fascist dictatorship."
The New York World Telegram, August 26, 1936

Incidentally Adolf Hitler had already been in power for three and a half years, and his vicious campaign against the Jews had been in full force for years by then, Frank Buchman dismissed it all with a flippant "Anti-Semitism? Bad, naturally. ...

I thought this interesting also...

Reinhold Niebuhr, the eminent theologian who was the author of the Serenity Prayer, was outraged. He wrote:

In this interview the social philosophy of the Oxford group, long implicit in its strategy, is made explicit, and revealed in all its childishness and viciousness. This philosophy has been implicit in Buchmanite strategy from the beginning. ...

In other words, a Nazi social philosophy has been a covert presumption of the whole Oxford group enterprise from the very beginning. We may be grateful to the leader for revealing so clearly what has been slightly hidden. Now we can see how unbelievably naïve this movement is in its efforts to save the world. If it would content itself with preaching repentance to drunkards and adulterers one might be willing to respect it as a religious revival method which knows how to confront the sinner with God. But when it runs to Geneva, the seat of the League of Nations, or to Prince Starhemberg or Hitler, or to any seat of power, always with the idea that it is on the verge of saving the world by bringing the people who control the world under God-control, it is difficult to restrain the contempt which one feels for this dangerous childishness.

Christianity and Power Politics, Reinhold Niebuhr, in the chapter "Hitler and Buchman".


"At the moment we are trying to put our lives in order. But this is not an end in itself. Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God..."
The Big Book, William G. Wilson, page 77.

The real purpose is not to quit drinking, but to be of maximum service to God........

That is Religious.

[bonsai12]

God and or (God's Will)is mentioned 66 times in the first 164 pages. PG 133, 130,129,128,124,123,121,120,117,116,114,98,95,93,1 02,100,88,87,86,85,84,83,81,80,77,76,75,72,71,70,6 9,68,67,63,62,60,59,57,56,55,54,53,52,51,49,47,46, 45,29,28,25,24,14,13,12,11,10,164,162,161,158,156, 155,570, and God is mentioned in forward to the second edition two times.

The Word Remove is mentioned 6 times PG 84, 76, 71, 68, 59x2

It mentions the word shortcomings 5 times. PG 127, 59, 50, 25, 19

I don’t know if anyone knows this or not but there is a search engine on the internet that looks up quotes and words in the big book. I use it a lot it helps with memorizing certain things and facts like the one’s above.

I also wanted to say this based on a few of the posts above, AA is not a religous program but the Big Book does say see where religious people are right make use of what they offer and welcomes all faiths by personal religious affiliation, we include Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus, and a sprinkling of Moslems and Buddhists. All faiths are welcome and acepted. Another reason for the world wide acceptance of A.A. was the ministration of friends-friends in medicine, religion, and the press, together with innumerable others who became our able and persistent advocates.

21.BIG BOOK-FOREWORD TO SECOND EDITION PXX.HTML
... the slowest progress. Some of the recommendations of A.A.’s early medical and religious friends will be found further on in this book. Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious organization. Neither does A.A. take any particular medical poin...
./book/ftse-pxx.html

[nandm]

Frank Buchman the Oxford Groups leader was insane....

Read what he said about Hitler...

No wonder Bill separated from the Oxford Group. That is interesting and frightening research.

I am going to agree to disagree for now though on it being a religious organization. Who knows there may be a day when I feel different.

Thank you for the insight and the interesting facts on the Oxford group.

[bonsai12]

21.BIG BOOK-FOREWORD TO SECOND EDITION PXX.HTML ... the slowest progress. Some of the recommendations of A.A.’s early medical and religious friends will be found further on in this book. Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious organization. Neither does A.A. take any particular medical poin...
./book/ftse-pxx.html

[lovingseren]

Excuse me, I have to jump in here, if you talk about turning your will over to God, how is that NOT religious?

Seren

[bugsworth]

I think it is important to understand the origin of what one choose to believe in especially if one wishes to pass it along to others.

Bill did eventually split with the Oxford group (in reality he was asked to leave) after many years of involvement. Dr. Bob, however stayed a few years longer...but the reality is the teachings of the group had already planted the seed from which aa stemmed.

Much of the doctrine in the bb is directly from Frank Buchman and his group, that is why Wilson gave credit to the Group.

The bb is venerated in its own right. I choses to use the Bible

And yes nandm it is frightening...

[bonsai12]

You can call it a religious program if you want but I just put a quote out there form the Big Book that does claim no religious affiliations. As I said if you want it to be religious for you then that’s ok with me but based on what’s written in the Big Book I'll have to agree with Bill Wilson in that it’s not a religious program.

Your personal religious beliefs are your own and the Big Book welcomes any demonination you choose. All faiths are welcome and acepted but AA is not religious.

[bugsworth]

The terms "spiritual experience" and "spiritual awakening" are used many times in this book ....

Yet it is true that our first printing gave many readers the impression that these personality changes, or religious experiences, must be in the nature of sudden and spectacular upheavals. Happily for everyone, this conclusion is erroneous.

The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Appendix II, Spiritual Experience, page 569.

So there it is: you can get your religious experience very quickly or very slowly, but you must get one.

[kevin 311]

bugsworth, I'll say that I also had issues with the theology implied in the Big Book

I don't have a problem with "God" as a convenient term of reference to the Indefinable Something

my problem was that certain attributes and modes of operation are implied in the BB -- BUT we must make allowances for the fact that the BB was written by those particular people in the 1930s who probably didn't have the exposure to world religions and philosophies that so many of us do today, so they couldn't help but frame things according to their understanding in those times and locales

what I had to do was try to see it another way, to keep exploring in the area of my own understanding, and try to reconcile the apparent conceptual divergences

maybe someday I'll write "How Kevin Sees It"

(btw, j/k about 278 )

(sorry about that, Signal30)

[bonsai12]

Most Empathatically we wish to say that any alcoholic capable of honestly facing his problems in the light of our experience can recover, provided he does not close his mind to all spiritual concepts. He can only be defeated be an attitude of intolerance or belligerent denile.
We find that no one need have dificulty with the spirituality of the program. Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable. Page 570

I wonder how many times intolerance shows up in the Big Book?

I see it 5 times in the first 164 pages and once on 570 (stories excluded).

[bugsworth]

Kevin,

I have no problem with God either. The man upstairs saved me many a times, I thank him daily...

I agree about making allowances for the book, how can one not?

These allowances, however do not negate the fact that the "program" is religious.

Bill Wilson even stated to feed the newcomer with teaspoons not bucket as not to identify the true nature...religion...too quickly...

[kevin 311]

I might have to pass

I see a lot of dots but am not sure how they are meant to be connected

[bugsworth]

Looking forward to "How Kevin Sees It" LOL

[nandm]

Originally Posted by kevin 311

I might have to pass

I see a lot of dots but am not sure how they are meant to be connected

I am in the agree to disagree stage of this too. I realize that some need to see the program as religious and it is okay. What ever it takes. What matters most about any program is; is it working for the person working it, not whether it is religious or not. If I had believed AA to be religious I might not be alive today as I did not realize there were any other programs out there. I was desperate to try anything to get sober except go to the hellfire and damnation God of my childhood. I still refuse to believe in that God. But accept the fact that others do. I am sticking to my original post on this one as IMHO it is about definitions of religion and spirituality. Unfortunatly many people associate the terms religion and God with Judeo Christian beliefs.

[bugsworth]

nadmn, I do understand your devotion to the program which you believed saved your life. I believe you are sober today because of YOU. No matter what veichle you decided to drive, you got to your destination....Sobriety, freedom and peace.

You state that some people "need to see the program as religious"

For me, I didn't NEED to see it that way, it IS that way...

The God which Buchman believed in, hence Wilson believed in was not a Christian God, nor a God of any other religion I know of....not one other religion teaches you that you are powerless. We are responsible for our lives and actions.

[nandm]

Originally Posted by bugsworth

nadmn, I do understand your devotion to the program which you believed saved your life. I believe you are sober today because of YOU. No matter what veichle you decided to drive, you got to your destination....Sobriety, freedom and peace..

You are absolutely correct. I believe that if I had tried some other program I may have been just as successful. That is why I don't believe in cramming AA down anyone's throat. I have met people that have recovered using other vehicles and are happy, healthy people today. AA just happens to be the program I found available to me. I do owe my life to the program because if I had not found it then I would be dead. Yes, I did have to and still have to do the work. So today I have a choice; either use the tools I have been given through the program or decide to stop working at it and go back to drinking. I choose which one I want so yes I am sober because of me. But it does take both the tools as well as the action for me. Before AA I did not have the tools.

You state that some people "need to see the program as religious"

For me, I didn't NEED to see it that way, it IS that way...

The God which Buchman believed in, hence Wilson believed in was not a Christian God, nor a God of any other religion I know of....not one other religion teaches you that you are powerless. We are responsible for our lives and actions.

It is your choice how you put the numbers together. Each person percieves things in a slightly different way. I do not percieve it to be a religious program that is probably because I could not accept it if it was in my perception. You see it as a religious program, you add up the information you have and come to that conclusion. I add the information up differently. That does not mean either of us is wrong it simply means we have a different perception of the available information. I did not mean to cause any offense by my statement. It obviously did not come across as I intended it to.