Just for curious reasons....

[jimhere]

Bill was wary of AA being labeled as a new religion because as he said, it is pretty heady stuff for us. And because it would divert us from a single purpose. To me the 12 Steps are a path in and of themselves and in and of themselves they are sufficient. It is a path that embraces all paths, yet is none of those paths.

As for my personal religious convictions, I keep those to myself in AA, except with a few. What I have experienced of what I call God is that I felt far away from something I shouldn't have felt far away from. Something, that as has been stated, is closer to me than me. Closer to me than breath. When alcohol worked, it was a unifying experience-I felt a part of. Alcohol hasn't been called spirits for centuries by mistake. I found that out when I was thirteen. By the time I was seventeen, I was already having serious trouble. Seriou enough for mother to throw me out when I was between junior and senior year of high school. I went and stayed with my grandma. My grandma was a born-again, baptized in the holy ghost, tongue -talking Pentecostal. She bugged me to go to church with her, so I went. They were singing and praising (I still like that part) and then they an altar call. I knew that there was something real wrong with me when I was seventeen and I really believe that God was calling me. I did not go to God on the mountain, I answered that altar cal out of a deep sense of desperation. I went down front and made a surrender. I has an experience similiar to what Bill described. Unlike Bill I didn't follow up on it and it wore off. For the next fourteen years I drank away everything worthwhile in life. Till I got to the bottom. No one cries out to God except out of desperation.

When I was three years sober I began to explore religion. I tried a church similiar to the one my grandma went to. I still liked the singing and praising, but I had to part ways with them theologically. They wanted to tell me how I should believe. That is the difference between AA and religion. I can lead my prospects to God, but it is up to them to establish the relationship. If they come from a religious background, I encourage them to pick that up again. I encourage all of my sponsorees to explore religion. But I don't tell them what to believe. In fact I believe that religious beliefs can be a bar to religious experience. I've been granted glimpses of a bigger reality that is beyond labels. I don't think it cares what you call it, whether it is God, Jesus, Allah, Elohim, Yaweh, etc.
Jim

[nandm]

Originally Posted by jimhere

Bill was wary of AA being labeled as a new religion because as he said, it is pretty heady stuff for us. And because it would divert us from a single purpose. To me the 12 Steps are a path in and of themselves and in and of themselves they are sufficient. It is a path that embraces all paths, yet is none of those paths. .................................
When I was three years sober I began to explore religion. I tried a church similiar to the one my grandma went to. I still liked the singing and praising, but I had to part ways with them theologically. They wanted to tell me how I should believe. That is the difference between AA and religion. I can lead my prospects to God, but it is up to them to establish the relationship. If they come from a religious background, I encourage them to pick that up again. I encourage all of my sponsorees to explore religion. But I don't tell them what to believe. In fact I believe that religious beliefs can be a bar to religious experience. I've been granted glimpses of a bigger reality that is beyond labels. I don't think it cares what you call it, whether it is God, Jesus, Allah, Elohim, Yaweh, etc.Jim

Thank you Jim.

That was a well worded post. I especially agree with the areas I bolded in. I truly appreciate your input.

[paulmh]

If you want self-empowerment and self-improvement you might want to try another approach.

Wow. That's more contentious to me than the "is AA a religion" argument. This is why I've stayed out of the AA forum for a while, and I think I'm going to continue to do so. It seems to me Jim, and I'll say this with as much love as I can muster, that page 60 and 61 of the BB applies to all alcoholics, whether they think they are recovered or not. We are imperfect. Our knowledge is imperfect. The BB does not resolve that. It makes it possible for us to live with it.

As for you Bugsworth, the flaw in your argument is that you think that you know what everyone else hands over to. I shared my ESH with you. I hand it over, and I don't need to know anything other than the universe or G*d or whatever takes care of it. It requires, from me, an Altered Attitude. The Altered Attitudes are what recovery is about. Not the dogma.

With that I'm going to bow out. I'm really tired of the know-it-all BS that goes on in the AA forum just now.

[bugsworth]

I appreciate everyones input, it is invaluable to me and countless others.

My apologies to paulmh, I am by no means a know it all, in fact I know little in the grand scheme of things. I like what you say about altered attitudes, I believe this is key in recovery.

My point was that the bb gives specific instructions, which I have posted in regards to this matter. Most given as evidence, but unfortunately has been overlooked as if it does not exist. Denial runs rampant in most alcoholics, recovering and active alike.

As Jim stated Bill was wary of aa being labeled a religion, he had encountered the problem long before the book had been published, it is no wonder the debate continues on.

Maybe, when a newcomer ask the question, which they always do...one would be kind enough to provide an honest answer. Wilson said it himself..."there is definately a religious element" Don't we owe that to the people who are seeking help? To the ones, as Jim said, whom are being led to God.

"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of other's opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.”
Steve Jobs

[JustOneMan]

Somehow, it occurs to me, after reading this thread, that it's all good!

It really is. I hear people questioning, examining and seeking.

When I was drunk, it seemed to me that I had everything I needed.

Sober, I know that this just isn't so.

What I need in my life is going to be different from what you need. I have had a spiritual experience and it was mine. Mine alone. You cannot have MY experience and I can't give it to you, no matter how much I might wish to.

All I can say is keep seeking y'all. As long as you are seeking, there is a very good chance that you will discover just what it is that you need.

It is when we stop seeking that we are lost...

[jimhere]

Originally Posted by paulmh

Wow. That's more contentious to me than the "is AA a religion" argument. This is why I've stayed out of the AA forum for a while, and I think I'm going to continue to do so. It seems to me Jim, and I'll say this with as much love as I can muster, that page 60 and 61 of the BB applies to all alcoholics, whether they think they are recovered or not. We are imperfect. Our knowledge is imperfect. The BB does not resolve that. It makes it possible for us to live with it.

As for you Bugsworth, the flaw in your argument is that you think that you know what everyone else hands over to. I shared my ESH with you. I hand it over, and I don't need to know anything other than the universe or G*d or whatever takes care of it. It requires, from me, an Altered Attitude. The Altered Attitudes are what recovery is about. Not the dogma.

With that I'm going to bow out. I'm really tired of the know-it-all BS that goes on in the AA forum just now.

I think I'll bow out of this one as well. Thanks Paul.

I will say that I wasn't intending to be contentious. It is just the truth. AA has been lumped in with the self-help programs for years, and it is not self-help.

With that, I'm done on this thread.
Jim

[RufusACanal]

What is this? When did any of you suddenly gain all of the answers? Truth? Whose truth? Truth is still developing for each of us unless you no longer have questions in this life to ask. Not one member asked the question, "Why" to Bugsworth. Is this because you already have found the definitive answers? Far be it from me to ever commit the heresy of questioning the historical aspects of AA or my more learned brethren. LOL

Some months ago, I rudely told Bugs to share her ESH in the Mental Health threads. I was pissed; I perceived Bugs was attempting to stomp on my tightly held beliefs of AA mythology. Even CarolD slapped me around for my crass, unthinking comments; which I might add was enjoyable. I had to look beyond my initial distain and ask why.

Openmindedness is essential to growth in a new life; if you have all of the answers then you might need to inventory your pious nature. There is no room in the rooms for the "Pharisee". If you are offended by my comments, call your Sponsor or bring the topic up at a meeting. Much love to each and all.

[sugErspun]

"Openmindedness is essential to growth in a new life; if you have all of the answers then you might need to inventory your pious nature. "

Let's be open minded towards those who think they have all the answers -erm- practice what we preach.

[nandm]

Originally Posted by RufusACanal

What is this? When did any of you suddenly gain all of the answers? Truth? Whose truth? Truth is still developing for each of us unless you no longer have questions in this life to ask. Not one member asked the question, "Why" to Bugsworth. Is this because you already have found the definitive answers? Far be it from me to ever commit the heresy of questioning the historical aspects of AA or my more learned brethren. LOL.

Bugs and I had a discussion on the why of the religious aspect of AA earlier in this thread, therefore I did not feel it necessary to state the "why" in those words again. But thank you for your input.

[bugsworth]

Seeking the truth is life time endeavor...from cradle to grave. Thanks Rufus..

My only hope is that the next time someone asks the question of anyone of us Is aa religious? We give them the honest answer. One should never put another human being in the position where questions are not to be asked, and answers never questioned.

[nandm]

Originally Posted by nandm

Bugs and I had a discussion on the why of the religious aspect of AA earlier in this thread, therefore I did not feel it necessary to state the "why" in those words again. But thank you for your input.

Disclaimer: This was a poor attempt at very dry humor so please take it for what it is. Thanks.

[lovingseren]

When I went to AA prior to getting sober in 2003, someone told me I could use a tea pot or a toaster as my higher power. The thought of turning my life over to an object left me speechless. I did not return to AA.

Reading the responses here has left me none the wiser.

Interesting thread.......Thank You everyone.

Seren

[CAPTAINZING2000]

They could of told you to use the group as a power greater then you.

objects is a lame answer

[Signal30]

I know that when I FINALLY stopped trying to take on the world and do it MY way, and turn to God, my life started getting better. Me versus the world wasn't working, and my was that a selfish way to live my life.

I don't bend over backwards to advise the newcomer about God. I simply tell them how Gods will is working for me. If they continue to try to do it their way, then by Gods will maybe some day they will look into why it works for us and not them.

But again that's by Gods will not mine.


Tom

[bugsworth]

Seren and Captian,

The thought of using an object is not only lame and leaves one totally befudeled, but it is this particular features that consititutes idolatry.

Idolatry is "the worship of a created object either made by human hands or created by God" rather than worship one would give to the true God.

Christianity holds that the essential element of the commandment not to make "any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above" is "and bow down and worship it"

So a group of drunks is out too.

Signal, I find it a wise decision on your part not to advise the newcomer about God, after all that would mean that you know what Gods will is for the newcomer. This would be especially harmful if you both worshiped a different God. The will of a group of drunks and the will of a toaster has to be two entirely different things.

Informing a newcomer is the issue....telling the truth is the issue...

When that has been done and a newcomer decides this is what they are willing to do to get sober...the forward you go side by side.


Not to inform, but deceive newcomers of the nature of the program is lying regardless if one feels it is in the newcomers benefit.


“You can bend it and twist it... You can misuse and abuse it... But even God cannot change the Truth.”
Michael Levy

[Tazman53]

You know I am sober today because I was able to find a Higher Power then myself that I understand, I have chosen to call my HP God because to me he fits the #1 definition of God.

Main Entry: 1god
Pronunciation: \ˈgäd also ˈgȯd\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German got god
Date: before 12th century
1capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a: the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe

Am I religous? No, I am spiritual, I have been told that I may or may not find my spirituality leading me to religion, I have not yet. I draw closer to my HP daily, he has yet to point me in the direction of any faith, he might one day, but then again he may not.

If AA is a religion it is a damn cool one, because one can belong to the AA religion and be an Aethist, Agnostic, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Hara Krishna, Buddist, etc.!!!

What a neat religion, just find a Higher Power, you pick your HP, if you want to worship your HP, go for it!!! If you don't want to worship your HP, that is cool to!

Yes sir, AA is a cool religion, I can go to an AA religous service and say a prayer or not say a prayer, I can stand or sit, I can lead the service if I want to, or do nothing, I can put a buck in the basket if I wish or not.

What a great religion, there is only one requirement to be a member of the congregation, a desire to stop drinking, that is it.

You know if there were more religions like AA everyone would be religous, even atheist and agnostics woulb be religous, they would have to fill the definition of religous if AA is a religion.

Just an old alcoholics take on it.

[bugsworth]

Let me get this straight....

IF aa is a religion it is a....

really neat cool one....

one where you can pick any random higher power...even Santa, after all Santa has made many wishes come true..kinda a spiritual guy

if you want to worship, even santa, you can, if not no worries...

you can pray or not...so out with all the step prayers to santa....

you can stand or sit....very true

you can put a buck in or not, you can even take one out if you need it...seen it done with permission and its all good.

the only requirement for membership is the desire to stop drinking and you don't have to do anything....

and.......If there were more religions like aa Everyone would be religious even the agnostics and the atheists!

Wow Taz your right that is pretty neat....but entirely untrue.

[nandm]

Is AA a religion? I am to the point with this topic that I realize I am just


This topic is to the point we are

I'm done with it but you guys have fun

[Signal30]

I don't care if we all AA a rootin tootin God club of sobriety. If the newcomer has issues with the fellowship based on God than so be it. If they continue to try to "lick" their drinking or drug problem by self-will, again so be it.

AA is about attraction rather than promotion. When they hit their bottom, and IF they are willing to listen to what AA has to say, then I will do my best to help the newcomer.

I do not believe in "coddling" the newcomer telling them about God in a "political correct" fashion. God is that power grater than yourself. Most people that I know, (including myself in the past), didn't believe in God, because that was the only way they thought they could get back at God for making their life so bad. Only after they spent some time in the program, did most of them learn that almost all of their problems were of their own making, (Including myself).

I don't waste my time trying to convince someone that there is a God. If they choose not to follow the program, I divert my time to one who is willing to go to the length to achieve sobriety.


Tom

[bugsworth]

Nandm, there is no beating of anything here especially a dead horse.

The issue of religion comes up all the time, newcomers almost always question it, unfortunately rather than answering the question some wish to minimize its importance, or obfuscate the issue.

Calling aa "spiritual" is patronizing at best. You are just exchanging terms. The spiritual principles of aa are not principles at all they are practices...remember aa is a program of action....action requires concrete directions...

Surrendering your will to God is an action...not a principle.

Do on to others as you will have done onto you, is a principle for living. Notice no directions for the Golden Rule.

Instead of understanding why this question is important, one questions the motives of the asker.

"My, my. Don't we have a resentment?"

"You have a grudge against A.A., that's all..."

Giving people false information does not help them stay sober.

[bugsworth]

Signal, It is the fact that you don't care, (your words not mine) that makes the issue so important.

What about the people that are so appalled by the grandiose religiosity that they decide they would rather risk drinking themselves to death than surrend