Pass it on.....

[Treasure2Find]

When working with a newcomer I use these three things. I think a man only needs one thing in life. I think he needs someone to love. I have learned that if I can’t give him that then I give him something to hope for. Many times I can’t even give him that so the only thing left is to just give him something to do.
(Hence AA and the 12 Steps)

I was sponsored by a man, who was sponsored by a man, who was sponsored by a man who moved to Boston from Akron. As the story goes when AA was founded this guy was a dentist who lived in Akron. I’ve never met this person from Akron but I have sat in a room with the three others, all carry the same message and approach as this man carried. I’ve always questioned the origin and aproach I mean why start with Chapter 2-3. Here is what I came up with. Lets point out the obvious most early AA’s were in a hospital bed and knew what the Doctor’s opinion was, they were going to die from drinking. Back then I wouldn’t hand someone a book and say here read the Dr’s opinion would you, they already knew what the Dr’s opinion was? Second there is no way on Earth Bill would hand someone a book and say read my story. Bill could easily have just talked about his own experience. The book says when working with others refer to the chapter on Alcoholism chapter 3. It says to let an alcoholic make up his or her own mind, to draw his own conclusion. The chapter also tells me to dwell on the hopelessness of the malady because I offer a solution chapter 2. After my spiritual experience I stopped questioning my programs origin.

What prompted this thread was something someone asked about sponsorship. Also for the newcomer that bounces in and out of this forum struggling with cravings and fighting AA. In the end I had know one to love, there was no hope left, and I just had nothing left to do. So the first day I asked my sponsor to be my sponsor he got me to work right away. This is what he called the prescription, obviously the prescription is different for everyone but something should be talked about ASAP if it is not I would get someone else after all this disease is incurable and if left untreated fatal..

Every Morning Beg God to take away the obsession, don’t ask beg my life depends on it.
God is everything or he is nothing right from the start (Discipline)

From the Big Book Read Chapters 2-3 everyday
One chapter dwelled on the hopelessness of my condition and other presented a solution (Discipline)

Go to a mtg everyday
Got me looking at my day (Inventory) when could I fit in a mtg. (Discipline)

Sit in Intensive Care
If there was no seat in the front of the mtg I was to find one and bring it to the front of the room. I found that getting there earlier was a better option. (Discipline)

Don’t share at mtgs until you have done your fifth step.
This wasn’t because I didn’t have anything good to say. It was so that I could learn to listen to others. (Discipline)

Call every night at the same time. A time that was convenient for us both.
(Discipline)

No matter what happened during the day always Thank God
(Discipline)

These instructions did not change for the first 4-6 weeks depending on if I was willing to fully concede to my inner most self that I was Alcoholic. This was the first step in the program as outlined in the Big Book. I then moved on to chapter 4 everyday which was step 2 and another 4-6 weeks worth of reading, calls, prayer, mtgs, etc. I didn’t have any discipline when I came into AA but I found that doing this everyday I started building my foundation and started building discipline. Plus what else did I have to do as I said once love is gone, hope is vanquished, there’s nothing left but to keep busy. Go to AA, pray, read the book, make some calls, sit in the front and listen.

Today I live the steps, I'm busy as hell, hope has been restored, and I have more love in my life then I deserve. So what do I do now?

I pass it on.....

[bugsworth]

This is a interesting thread. Quite different from others I have read who subscribe to the twelve steps as a means of recovery.

Your opening line regarding love confuses me as I am an alcoholic who will be married 20 years on New Years day... I clearly have someone whom I love and who loves me, yet I drank. You state that "a man needs only one thing in life, someone to love" maybe since I am a woman this "theroy" of yours does not apply. I know of plenty of alcoholics who have people who love them. Love them so much they are being destroyed themselves...have you read any of the family and friends of alcoholics forum? I have and it has been a great help in my recovery.

Another thing I find curious is "begging" God....YIKES...I don't believe begging God to take away the obsession to drink appropriate. Thanking God for another sober day would be more along the lines of my night time prayer. JMO of course...

One more thing...not sharing at meetings till your 5th step? Why? I understand listening and learning, but newcomers need to unload their burdens...if this was a rule there would be no reason for begginers meetings...I have to say I don't agree with this.


Anyway thanks for the interesting read..

[jimhere]

In my home group, no one shares until they have done a fifth step with their sponsor. This applies to home group members only.

I wasn't a member of the group I belong to now when I was new. But my sponsor told me this:

"If you knew anything at all, you wouldn't be here. So let's just be quiet and listen. You have been spreading the sickness for a long time. Soon you'll have plenty to say."

He knew my history. For years I had been going to meetings and spewing out what it was I thought you wanted to hear, whining about all the injustices done to me and how cruel life was to me, or spewing out treatment center lingo. I know what it soulds like, listen to it all the time these days.

For this reason, there are several meetings I don't attend anymore. At the beginning of the meeting the chairperson asks for "Birthdays" and then you have a room full of thirty, sixty, and ninety day wonders to listen to. They really have nothing to say, except to ask for help. Meanwhile there are people in the room with thirty plus years of solid sobriety who remain silent because they are not asked. I have noticed that there aren't many old-timers in meetings any more. I think this is the reason.
Jim

[Treasure2Find]

bugsworth,

With regards to my post thank-you for your input. Every person who reads it I’m sure will have a different take.

As far as the friends and family section goes because of some of the things you said to me in a PM I had administration remove my thread on Marriage and Divorce. They told me that if the BS continues they would gladly address the problem.

As far as begging God, yes I do that in the morning. I say God please I beg you to take away the obsession to drink or do drugs. Like you said thanking God at night and through out the day are always best.

As far as not sharing until the fifth step I asked the same thing. It was to help me to listen to others; I would need that when I got to chapter 7. It also gave me a chance to talk to my sponsor about what was going on with me instead of with people who had no bearing on my recovery. It gave me a chance to start sharing things with him and start trusting him; I would need that when I got to my 5th step.

All Good Things,

[bugsworth]

Treasure, I did not mention your post in Marriage and divorce...you did. Your need to have your post pulled was an act of self preservation on your part...it had nothing to do with me as I didn't respond to it. I mentioned the forum Friends and Families of Alcoholics only to direct your attention to those who love an alcoholic...it was a response to your original post. I disagreed with your opening statement...it would be nice if you stayed on topic. The only BS that needs to be addressed is yours. For the record...since YOU mentioned it...the pm of which you speak was sent by you to me. I simply responded to your assesment of my inventory. Remember you are only as sick as your secrets.

I am not sure why you are still "begging" God to take away the obsession to drink, should that obsession have been removed by now...if not, then why do you work with others?

Jim, I like what you say about home group members not sharing untill the fifth step, but IMO many newcomers need to vent, it is also a way to let people get to know you. My sponsor told me to get my hand up at every meeting, even if just to say my name. I am not a huge on speaking, I prefer to listen, so this was hard on me. Thanks for your imput, as always spoken from the heart!

[jimhere]

Hey Bugs,
Hope you have enjoyed a good holiday season.

I do agree to a point about the venting. I also believe that are only two reasons to go to an AA meeting:
1. To seek help. Many times "venting" can be a way of saying "I need some help."
The problem arises here-In many so-called newcomer meetings, newcomers have been
led to believe that AA meetings are a form of free group therapy. Some one "vents"
and soon you have everyone else offering advice and opinions. It is the blind leading
the blind.

2. To find some one needing help: The reason old-timers and recovered alcoholics go to
meetings. Sadly, it seems that many of the newcomers do not seem to think that the
recovery process of the 12 Steps is what they need. The old-timers have no one to
help, because it is hard to help anyone who already knows everything. Consequently,
many old-timers have given up. They stop going to meetings. They become cynical
and hard, and slowly whither on the vine. I hear instances of people thirty, thirty-five
years sober blowing their heads off because they have no purpose in AA anymore.

I recently made the remark that it is hard to find desperate alcoholics in AA anymore. To be sure there are many who are hurting, but all they seek is the frothy emotional appeal type of answer-something that feels good and is quick, easy, and comfortable. A superficial answer at best that has no permanent effect.

As a result, some of us have withdrawn from mainstream AA and have taken to going to the jitter joints to find prospects. We meet in each other's homes and when we find a prospect, we make him a part of what we are doing.

I've always said there are two fellowships in AA. One is what everyone thinks of as the fellowship of AA-the meeting makers make it, don't drink no matter what, let's stay sick together meeting based fellowship. The other is the fellowship of the spirit that has nothing to do with rooms and chairs. It is rooted in a common problem and a common solution.
Jim

[bugsworth]

Jim, my holidays were great! I hope you enjoyed yours as well! This was my first Christmas sober in 8 years, quite a gift in itself!

I agree with you about the free therapy sessions and the blind leading the blind. I have been fortunate enough to be able to find a few meetings a week that tend to be constructive, and I always leave feeling better than I came. I always walk away with something, kwim?

I happen to like large meetings that contain people in all stages of recovery, It reminds me of where I was and where I want to be. I find listening to someone new as helpful as listening to someone who has been in the program for years.

I hope you have a great New Year! It is such a blessing to not have to put quit drinking on my resolutions list this year!!! Gods Speed to you Jim.

[jimhere]

Thanks bugs-I am filled with hope for the coming year. And wishing you a sober, peaceful, joyous, and prosperous new year.
Jim

[Treasure2Find]

I beg God to take away the obsession everyday because I am not recovered or cured and I never will be. I work with others because it helps take me out of myself.

BB pg 89
Practical experience shows that nothing will so much insure immunity from drinking as intensive work with other alcoholics. It works when other activities fail. This is our twelfth suggestion.

BB pg 84
It is easy to let up on the spiritual program of action and rest on our laurels. We are headed for trouble if we do, for alcohol is a subtle foe. We are not cured of alcoholism. What we really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition. Every day is a day when we must carry the vision of God’s will into all of our activities. “How can I best serve Thee-Thy will (not mine) be done.” These are thoughts which must go with us constantly.

Sometimes I think I am recovered but from practical personal experience I know that this is not true.

[bugsworth]

Treasure it also states in the bb the following...


We will seldom be interested in liquor.
...
We will see that our new attitude toward liquor has been given to us without any thought or effort on our part. It just comes! That is the miracle of it.
...
We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, pages 84-85.

If the obsession no longer exists and the problem is removed why would one continue to beg Gods removal of something that does not exist? Kinda contradicts itself kwim??

I do agree working with others is very important.

[Treasure2Find]

My post made reference to what my sponsor told me to do on day one. To beg means to ask for earnestly. Earnestly can be characterized by or showing deep sincerity. Considering the content and seriousness of what I was praying for I do believe begging for my life was absolutely appropriate.

BB pg 87.
we sometimes select and memorize a few set prayers which emphasize the principles we have been discussing. There are many helpful books also.

Today the wording is always optional so long as the prayer is sincere and it will help others.

[bugsworth]

I am not sure you answered my query, but maybe I lost the message in your translation.

I know what beg and earnestly means, however that was not my question.

Question:The act of asking; interrogation; inquiry; as, to examine by question and answer.

[Treasure2Find]

What is your question?

[jimhere]

I haven't asked God to keep me sober for a long time.

I think God does a pretty good job of that already.

My job is go about my father's business here on earth. If I attend to that, God does his part.
Jim

[bugsworth]

First part of my question....
I am not sure why you are still "begging" God to take away the obsession to drink, should that obsession have been removed by now?

Which you kinda answered with....."that you are not recovered or cured" Does this mean you still have the obsession? Which is my question.

Second part of my question...
If not, then why do you work with others?

Which you clearly answered with "it helps me take me out of myself. Thank You for the clarity on that.

[Treasure2Find]

Jim congratulations on not having to ask God for help anymore, good for you. I like to stick close to the basics that way I don’t have to go back to them. I try to make prayer and meditation a regular part of my daily devotion. Continuing to ask for help continues to keep me humble and right sized.

Does that answer your first question Bugsworth? Again I would have to point out that these were instructions my sponsor gave to me when I first started. I didn’t walk into AA and suddenly my obsession was removed. Now that I work a program of recovery I don’t have the obsession to drink anymore. With saying that I don’t need it to come back so I read the book and stick with the daily reprieve idea.

[bugsworth]

You answered the question in an interesting round about way.

I am not sure why, however, you choose to be condescending to Jim. I am sure Jim "sticks close to the basics so he does not have to go back to them."

I think there is alot left for you to learn as far as being humble and right sized.

[Treasure2Find]

I’m glad I could answer your question I hope it was helpful to you. So you think there is a lot left for me to learn as far as being humble and right sized? Thank you for pointing that out because I don’t always see it.

[bugsworth]

Well if you want me to be truthful....your answer was most confusing. In a very labored way of getting around to your answer, you stated the obsession was lifted yet you continue to beg God to remove the obsession...daily....It contradicts what we are told in the bb. You are begging God to remove something that is no longer there. I guess it begs another question...why? To remain spiritually fit? It doesn't add up, well for me it doesn't and as my son says...my bad.

As you once said to me, any time I can help I'll be here.

[sugErspun]

Since we are qouting the book - specifically about asking God to help

"And we have ceased fighting anything or anyone - even alcohol. For by this time sanity will have returned" -- I have to use that as a question for myself.

Am I still fighting alcohol? - the answer is no. The obsession is gone. I was promised it could be true, and it came about with a little bit of action, but nowhere near the effort I had put in the past trying to stop on my own, holding on to notions that I could do it.

I don't ask God to help with the obsession any longer - my motives are much more than just staying sober, they are to be aligned with this power who solved my problem, a problem I tried to solve for years, failing miserably time and again.

furthermore,


"...we ask God to direct our thinking, especially that it be divorced from self-pity, dishonest or self-seeking motives."


Nowhere after the first pages of the book does it say "We ask (beg) God to remove the obsession to drink" - I actually think that is a little selfish thinking. I like the idea of "God, I will do whatever you need me to do". Never are we in a place to bargain with God - (if you take away the obsession I will do such and such) rather - we have faith, we take the chance that we can abandon ourselves and that God will take care of us..guiding our thoughts, motives, actions. But this is only accomplished through very human means (writing inventory, making amends, meditating, praying, kindness, tolerance etc etc)

[Miss Pink]

why the debate here, folks?

Do what works for you....take what you like, and let every person see things their own way.

[Treasure2Find]

SoberRecovery.com Forums Violations

4. Trolling: Posting of any content with the intention of disrupting the forum or inflaming members-be it on someone's person, religious beliefs, race, national background, sexual orientation, or recovery program. This includes flaming, flame baiting, registration of multiple accounts or impersonation of another member. Do not Harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress or discomfort upon another Online Forum participant. This includes flaming on our forums or other public forums. We are here to share our experience and offer peer support. No other agendas that disrupt the forums will be tolerated.

This morning I made a post about some things my sponsor suggested when I first came in to AA. Begging God to take away my obsession has become a must do in my recovery program. In the beginning I questioned my programs origin and the readings my sponsor suggested. As I mentioned in my thread I have had a spiritual awakening and no longer question them but rather embrace them. This continuous questioning of my beliefs and my recovery program has at this point caused me distress and discomfort and it is now nothing more than harassment. I feel from the start the majority of the questions posted to me were used as a purpose of flaming, and flame baiting however I still did my best to answer these questions in a helpful and loving manner.

I put a thread out there because someone asked about sponsorship and wanted to share my experience strength and hope. I did find it fascinating that people don’t continue to ask God for help with their alcoholism. I’m fascinated because my program is contingent upon a daily reprieve so that is why I personally ask each and every day. I don’t discount that your claims are false or that your practices are unnecessary I’m simply fascinated by it. It’s very interesting and I can definitely see how AA has changed as it has spread across the world. I know I have no Monopoly on God and what works for you may not work for me and what works for me may not work for you. I ask God everyday and I stay sober, my sponsor suggested this practice and who am I to question. Today I humbly ask my creator for help and he grants it.

[jimhere]

Originally Posted by Treasure2Find

Jim congratulations on not having to ask God for help anymore, good for you. I like to stick close to the basics that way I don’t have to go back to them. I try to make prayer and meditation a regular part of my daily devotion. Continuing to ask for help continues to keep me humble and right sized.

Does that answer your first question Bugsworth? Again I would have to point out that these were instructions my sponsor gave to me when I first started. I didn’t walk into AA and suddenly my obsession was removed. Now that I work a program of recovery I don’t have the obsession to drink anymore. With saying that I don’t need it to come back so I read the book and stick with the daily reprieve idea.

Treasure, I think you & I are on the same page, just different perspectives.

I have (and I'm sure you do to) a New Employer. Being all powerful He provides what I need when I stick close (you mentioned sticking close) and do His work.

If God is my new employer, that means I have a new job. And it is not to stay sober. I have a primary spiritual aim, which is to do God's work. If I hold up my end of the deal, God seems to give me what I need-sobriety being number one. I put my alcoholism in God's hands and haven't looked back.

I do pray for knowledge of God's will and the power to carry it out-which is all I really need.

You see, my whole life has always been about me getting mine. It is still that way today to a degree. But I also understand that this deal isn't about me and it isn't for me. My sobriety is for you, not for me. But I still want mine. The book says not to pray for myself except that it will help others. My grandpa sponsor taught some of us a little prayer that I use every morning:

"Father, fill me with your loving spirit that it fill me up and flow into the lives of others."

That way I get mine by helping you get yours.

By the way, I appreciate your coming my defense bugs, but The Truth needs no defense.
Jim

[Dee74]

seeking a straight answer and some clarification is trolling now Treasure ?
tho to be fair, I'd be in discomfort and distress trying to defend your begging point too...
LOL

D

[Treasure2Find]

Please I BEG you all to stop

Have a Safe and Happy New Year, GO Patriots......