Do Meeting Makers really make it?

[jimhere]

There is a widely held belief in A.A. that if a newcomer will simply continue to attend meetings, "Something will finally rub off on you." And the implication, of course, is that the something which rubs off will be this so-called "miracle of A.A." Now there is no doubt in my mind that many people in A.A. accept this statement quite literally. I have observed them over the years. They faithfully attend meetings, faithfully waiting for "something to rub off." The funny part about it is that "something " is rubbing off on them. Death. They sit there-week after month after year-while mental, spiritual, and physical rigor mortis slowly set in.

I believe the real "miracle of A.A.," the "something" that will rub off, we hope, is simply the alcoholic's willingness to act."

-from the pamphlet "A Member's Eye View of Alcoholics Anonymous

[jimhere]

Part Two:

During the past 12 months we have had quite a number who felt that the fellowship, the helpful attitude toward others, the warming of the heart at social gatherings, was going to be sufficient to overcome the alcoholic's obsession. Taking stock at year's end, we find that this school of thought has few survivors, for the bottled heat treatment has persuaded them that we must find some sort of spiritual basis for living, else we die.
A few, who have worked ardently with other alcoholics on the philosophical rather than the spiritual plane, now say of themselves "We believed that Faith without works was dead, but we have conclusively proved that works without faith is dead also."

From a letter written in January 1940 from Bill Wilson to Gracie Snyder, wife of Clarence Snyder, who founded A.A. in Cleveland

[sugErspun]

I never cared much for "Don't leave before the miracle happens" either.

Maybe it's hard for some to communicate from 'the other side of the fence'. To be back in the shoes of the newcomer.

One thing is for sure, after attending AA meetings and maybe reading the book, and being around the fellowship in general - it can ruin your drinking next time you pick up. Particularly for those who think they have learned something or that they are working a program, those who were sure they would never drink again with the knowledge they had gained (I am guilty of this as anyone) when in fact they are just lying to themselves.

[jimhere]

If you are waiting for the miracle to happen, you've already missed it.

There is One who has all power-that One is God. May you experience it NOW.

[Sugah]

jim, I don't have your years in the rooms, but I can tell you what I've seen in a short time.

I've seen people sit in meetings, day after day, for a year or more and finally decide that their misery is too much, that just not drinking and going to meetings is not enough, and make a decision to give this sponsor stuff and this step stuff a try. I've seen a new light come into their eyes.

I've also seen people sit in meetings day after day, at first, then here and there, and be content to stay away from the first drink and be able to hold a job and tell the family, "See? I'm not drinking." I've seen a fair number of those folks disappear only to resurface in the police logs for DUI, disorderly conduct, domestic violence, and the like.

I've seen folks come in at the urging of a judge, waiting through the first meeting to get the slip signed, and, eventually, start showing up every day instead of the two or three a week required of them -- and get a sponsor, work a program of recovery, and recover.

I know that for me, personally, if all I gained from meetings was the ability to stay away from the first drink and nothing more, I wouldn't go, and I no doubt would have been drunk a long time ago. But meetings are a very convenient way for me to fulfill part of my twelfth step responsibility, and I take joy in that. With the rehab industry and doctors once again thinking they've got a cure for alcoholism, the old fashioned, face to face 12 step call opportunities are few and far between where I am. I've made a few -- but far fewer, in my five years, than people I know who've been doing this twenty, thirty, forty or fifty years did in their first five. Gotta find 'em where you find 'em, and whether forced, guilted or driven out of desperation, those prospects sitting there just might be fertile, and there'd better be some seed sowing if anything in them is going to take root. In my homegroup and the majority of meetings I attend, there is no illusion that happy, joyous and free can be had through assmosis. Neither do we rebuke the newcomer for want of willingness.

Do meeting makers make it? Well, they make a lot of meetings, at least for awhile. I think some of them do make it in the long run, if they choose, if they become willing, if they have enough evidence to convince them that making meetings alone is not what it's all about. Between their own misery and our joy, that shouldn't be too hard.

"Stick around till the miracle happens?" Sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly, but never without willingness.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

[jimhere]

Sugah,
It really isn't about rebuking anyone.

Maybe it is about smashing the myths that are perpetuated in the fellowship. Myths that kill alcoholics.
Jim

[Debaucher]

I thought about this in the past. I came to this conclusion. Folks who quit going to meetings and remain sober... don't go back to AA because they decided they don't need it and well... they don't get drunk and that backs up their idea.

Generally the folks coming back are the ones who quit going to meetings and got drunk... hence the return to what was working.

So what folks see supports what they want to believe!

I choose to not care if meeting makers make it! I believe that working the steps, going to meetings, and helping another alcoholic does more for me than just keeping me sober. It helps me get closer to my higher power and as I grow spiritually my life gets better.

[savoy]

Originally Posted by jimhere

There is a widely held belief in A.A. that if a newcomer will simply continue to attend meetings, "Something will finally rub off on you." And the implication, of course, is that the something which rubs off will be this so-called "miracle of A.A." Now there is no doubt in my mind that many people in A.A. accept this statement quite literally. I have observed them over the years. They faithfully attend meetings, faithfully waiting for "something to rub off." The funny part about it is that "something " is rubbing off on them. Death. They sit there-week after month after year-while mental, spiritual, and physical rigor mortis slowly set in.

I believe the real "miracle of A.A.," the "something" that will rub off, we hope, is simply the alcoholic's willingness to act."

-from the pamphlet "A Member's Eye View of Alcoholics Anonymous

For me, I didn't get willingness from meetings, I became willing when the pain moved me fwd.

"Fake it til you make it " still makes me cringe.

I cannot understand the advise to try 90 in 90, for what?
to see if I'd like to live in meetings ?

Many people who are given that advise have already blown way past the point where I knew I had to work the steps.

If there something seemingly unfair about it all, its that the dumbies tend to get it before the smart ones. I'm happy to be a dumby.

[SaTiT]

For me.The saying of don't leave 5 mins before the mirracle help me.
I went to 2-3 meetings a day but i would relapsed.
Obviousely there was faith and work in me somewhere.
Sometimes i would go drunk so meetings didn't stop my first drink.
But i kept coming back no matter what.

No court cards, not forced to.

The same old saying..I though i had all the answers.
I had to becareful with that...no i didn't have all the answers,
but i had plenty.lol

I prob AA like i did everything else. I knew i wasn't totally
well. I though of taking other avenues. i imagine everyone
that ever walked through the rooms of AA thought about it
to great lenght in their own mind.

I observed...did i really want what AA has to offer me ?
On the offset..."Hell no"..crazy broken down people which
reminded me of home. No more then wacthing my father
on days that he didn't drink. Still mean but not drunk on
the days that he didn't drink.
Obviously the god thing was not appealing to me.
You can't imaging me watching my father on sunday monring
standing on the podium in church, wouldn't you.
Faith with out work was not something i havn't heard of
before AA.

I knew it was somewhere alone the line of perseverence,
and consistency. But still had that awakward feeling
impending doom, empty inside and much more.
Obviously i couldn't assign a word to those feelings
at that time.

My moment of mirracle after months and relapsed.
I watched a woman cried her heart out, all of her pains
all of her anguish. Nothing to prove to anyone.
She had over 10 years of sober time at that piont.
That was real to me....I wanted that.
I wanted to be real...no, i may never be normal
but I'm real today.

[swmnkdinthervr]

In my mind any argument against what works for some or many depending on your perception is like an excuse to find a simpler, easier way to recover...

There are undoubtedly several paths to recovery and what works for you is best for you...and what works for the rest is the same...acceptance of a need and action on that need is what's required to stay sober...

[Music]

Faith without works and meetings without the steps produces nothing. Having said that, the bottom line is that I have to have the desire to stop drinking and the willingness to do whatever it takes to achieve that end. As it says in the Big Book, if I in any way, entertain the idea that some day, some how, I can drink like "normal" people, I'm doomed. There's a reason why in How It Works, personal honesty is mentioned several times in the first paragraph. I have to be honest about my motives for being in a meetings in the first place. If I'm there to not drink no matter what, I have a chance. If I'm there to satisfy someone else, and I have an agenda to do and say what they want to hear, success is questionable. Fake it 'til I make it is what I did for years while I drank. I had to get real, and stay real. Since day one, I've lived with the commitment to never drink again for the rest of my life....ONE DAY AT A TIME.

[jimhere]

I always say "Fake it until to you can't make it anymore."
Jim

[Rob B]

Good Thread Jim,
This weekend a guy who lived in meetings 2-3 a day for years was found dead in a snowdrift. He was a meeting makers makes it machine. Essentially He drank himself to death. I watched a fellowship love him into the morgue with cute little slogans and expressions. This guy never put together any sobriety, a week here, a couple of weeks there and then he would drink. He was the real deal, a hopeless drunk..just like me. Breaks my heart, it really does. I take solace knowing that his fight is now over, he is free today.

Going to meetings and not doing the work, is comparable to me going to my gym, hanging out for an hour, maybe have a coffee, and watch people work out. I then leave the gym without ever touching a weight, go home and wonder why I am not getting fit.

Meetings do not keep me sober. The only reason I go to meetings these days is to keep my eye on the door, looking for the newcomer, hoping I can get to them before the message of contemporary AA does. Strange days we are living in.......

[SaTiT]

i think it's just the way each indiviual perception of each
slogon or message. A wrench is a tool...but some people
trun it into a monkey wrench.lol

there's freedom in AA people can wish to do or not do anything
they chooce not to.

The only person that's going to keep me sober is me.
why worry about what other people think and do or not do.
i don't belive anyone can truely...process or have a view of the
world as I do..So how in the hell I'm going truley see things
as others do. I can relate and have compassion, understanding.


that's what i was obseving.
this is, that way. my way is better than your way
my why is the only right way and good way.

Obviouely if you work the step #3 rigth:rof
it's dosn't have to be a debet

what i'm saying is...are you sure you did the 12 steps rigth???
And of course there's going to be people questioning me for writing this...lol

[Emimily]

i don't think all meeting makers make it. i think step takers have the chance to. it's all up to us, our own honesty, openness, and willingness. that's me, though.

[mike_mass]

I've seen plenty of people accumulate many years of sobriety by just attending meetings. Is it *quality* sobriety? Who knows? I would have to interview their families and co-workers to get an unbiased opinion. It's a mystery why some get it and others don't. I've seen people go full-throttle, sponsor people, do fellowship, talk the steps, memorize passages from the literature --- then drink. On the other hand, I know ardent agnostics and atheists with many years sobriety and good family relationships.

I think the *real* danger (to me personally) is a mind-set that if things could be just right with the program, if somehow the right combination of literature, ritual, and creed could be brought to bear in the program that the earlier (never statistically documented) high success rate of AA could once again be achieved.

[RufusACanal]

Thank you Mike. AA will never see the success of those eariler years for a variety of reasons, with the most glaring one being that members do not want to go to the lengths necessary to help the new person get a fighting chance. Who is responsibile? I am. Milktoast groups all over the country that refuse to guide not only the newcomer, but their members as well. Chapter Seven comes to mind; folks more concerned about their wants, then receiving the plan of action.

[mike_mass]

Originally Posted by RufusACanal

Thank you Mike. AA will never see the success of those eariler years for a variety of reasons, with the most glaring one being that members do not want to go to the lengths necessary to help the new person get a fighting chance. Who is responsibile? I am. Milktoast groups all over the country that refuse to guide not only the newcomer, but their members as well. Chapter Seven comes to mind; folks more concerned about their wants, then receiving the plan of action.

I don't see any proof that AA EVER had a high recovery rate. Just because Bill W. wrote it doesn't mean it's true.

[RufusACanal]

Good point, yet everything Bill wrote for the Big Book was edited by those from Cleveland and New York. "Rarely have we seen a person fail, who has throughly followed our path".

[GrouchoTheCat]

So, you go to meetings regularly and stay sober.

Then you cheat people in your work, yell at the wife, kick the dog, scream at the other drivers out there, etc.

But you're sober.

It talks about: "if you want what we have"...

Well, if that's what you have I don't want it.

Yes, there are many in AA that are sober and are completely and thoroughly miserable. They are still in total possession of a whole bag full of glaring character defects.

Thankfully, I have met people in AA that are happy calm and serene. Strangely, they follow the Big Book, and actively work the steps laid out therein.


Man, do I hear some strange things at meetings.

Tonight I heard a new one: "AA is nothing more that a psych ward with an unlocked door.

Personally, I worry about that one.

Good thread Jim

[savoy]

Originally Posted by Rob B

I watched a fellowship love him into the morgue with cute little slogans and expressions.
....

The Westchester NY group used to say "when we bury him, we'll put him in the coffin face down so you can keep kissing his ass at the funeral".

[jimhere]

I didn't mean this thread to be about the success rate in today's A.A. compared to days past.

The first piece was taken from the pamphlet "A Member's Eye View of Alcoholics Anonymous," which is taken from a transcript a of talk given by an A.A. member in Los Angeles to college students sometime in the late 60's. The students were future counselors. IMO, it is one of our better pamphlets. Much better than say "A.A. At A Glance," which is pure crap. Read both and compare.

I found the letter in the book "The Spirituality of Imperfection," written by Ernest Kurtz and Katherine Ketcham. Great book if you haven't read it.

The letter was written by Bill to Gracie Snyder urging the Cleveland AA's to keep doing what they were doing.The success rate was considerably higher in the Akron/Cleveland AA than in New York. Because in Akron/Cleveland they emphasized the spiritual approach much more than in New York, where the approach was more fellowship-based and lacksidasical. Bill himself aknowledges this in another letter, which may be found in the same book.

Check out "Gresham's Law and Alcoholics Anonymous," written in the late 70's by an anonymous AA member and printed in 24 Magazine. You can find it online-just google "Gresham's Law and Alcoholics Anonymous."

All of these sources point out that