Those of us brought up with evolution taught as fact - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

needtobefree · 07-15-2007, 08:27 PM

It occurred to me today that those of us brought up in schools that taught evolution as fact may well struggle with the higher power concept of AA more than others. I was mulling this over the other morning and thinking well am I being egotistical because I'm reserved about there being a higher power (God) and then thought - no it's because I was never told there was an option, just evolution taught as fact!

dgillz · 07-15-2007, 08:56 PM

The HP concept in AA does not mean God. Even if you choose to call your HP God, it does not mean "creator". Even if you choose to believe that your HP called God is the creator, that does not invalidate evolution. They are not mutually exclusive.

I do not follow your logic at all.

Sav · 07-15-2007, 09:02 PM

Is it really? Religious people have to deal with inconsistancy in there beliefs on a regular basis. That's the part where "faith" comes in.

Besides, evolution could always be wrong...I'm waiting for them to explain how they fit all those huge dinosaurs into a tiny phone booth at frat parties!!!

GlassPrisoner · 07-15-2007, 10:48 PM

Quote:

They are not mutually exclusive.

I ditto that sentiment.

My personal Higher Power, whom I choose to call God, created us through evolution.

I'm of the Creative Intelligence camp.

**CarolD** · 07-15-2007, 10:54 PM

I am a simple person...

My God created evolution

**best** · 07-15-2007, 11:01 PM

I was brought up with the evolution teachings but I know in my heart who God is.

True or not ... evolution is a possibility.
From the beginnings of life to this day...the things that have happened or guessed at as to what happened... I don't see where it is important for how I deal with life today.
Evolution, big bang, or as what is written in the biblle as solid truth...still comes down to... God did it and I am here. How I got here doesn't help me deal with todays moments...so untill I can ask God face to face..what is the truth on that...I don't worry about it.

**CarolD** · 07-16-2007, 12:11 AM

(((need)))

When I was in school...I did learn many things
evelution ...archery...chemistry tables...sewing...

none of which made a whit of difference in my life.

God did and does.
Knock Knock?

needtobefree · 07-16-2007, 12:11 AM

Interesting posts, thanks for the responses. I'm not saying that I believe evolution is necessarily true or creation, I'm reserved about them both and the in between beliefs that God created us via evolution. I guess I am sure about nothing, perhaps that is the problem :0)

**historyteach** · 07-16-2007, 12:16 AM

Need,
Evolution is not taught as "fact."
It's taught as scientific theory.

Shalom!

needtobefree · 07-16-2007, 12:19 AM

That's not how I remember it in the UK though :0)

fraankie · 07-16-2007, 09:53 AM

well,
my first time around
i didn't get the higher power thing at alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llll\but
when i became "willing"
as in willingness is the key
as in, 3rd step
well, for quite a while
the group was my higher power
here were others willing to stay sober, like me
and
then, my higher power became a sort of this or that
to where, today, i rely on "my higher power"

best
fraankie

p,s, i remember someone sharing the doorknob to the group was his higher power
so..................
to each, his own

Debaucher · 07-16-2007, 11:54 AM

My degree is a BE in education... I was certified to teach biology in grades 7-12

I don't believe that evolution should be taught as fact. I think when it was taught to me the distiction between theory and Law were discussed... but after it was over much of us thought the theory was fact...

As a teacher I unfotunately never got to teach evolution...

I think the danger is that you become so rigid in your beliefs... when you completely loose your humility... when you believe you cannot be wrong...

You miss the truth when it is staring you in the face... HEY people thought the earth was flat once... people thought the sun revolved around the earth once... etc... etc...

Science and religion... sometimes oil and water... Personally I believe I am not all knowing... and if religion tells me X and science says Y and I think that X is not equal to Y... then perhaps... I don't know enough to see how they are both correct!

I don't care that science says the earth is <<<pick a number>>> years old... and the bible says... <fill in the blank> and they are not the same... oh well... it doens't mean either is wrong... I choose to believe both... the difference is... science could be wrong and they might change their mind... as they learn more...

liveweyerd · 07-16-2007, 12:18 PM

There is a school of thought that teaches process theology with means both are part of the whole. That growth is ongoing in all, an evolving process, as God evolves as well as nature and humans.
So as Best said, it is not mutually exclusive.

What a planet we live in/on! eh?

raerae6 · 07-16-2007, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarolD

I am a simple person...

My God created evolution

I never understood why they have to be opposed to each other. Like what is said above. Maybe if God created everything, he did it through evolution?

needtobefree · 07-16-2007, 02:46 PM

Thanks again for the responses.

raerae6 - thank you :0) this is where I find it difficult. If we are to believe that God created the earth and that the Bible is the ineffable word of God then evolution is contrary to the truth. I've had these circular thoughts for a long time.

liveweyerd - thank you :0) I will check out process theology, it sounds interesting.

Debaucher - thank you

Quote:

I don't care that science says the earth is <<<pick a number>>> years old... and the bible says... <fill in the blank> and they are not the same... oh well... it doens't mean either is wrong... I choose to believe both... the difference is... science could be wrong and they might change their mind... as they learn more...

That's how I feel about science, I'm sure continual progressions will be made in the study of evolution, an evolution of evolution, lol, or something different :0)

fraankie - thank you :0) The doorknob analogy makes sense, opening the door brings freedom from alcoholism, I like it :0)

dgillz · 07-16-2007, 03:50 PM

Quote:

If we are to believe that God created the earth and that the Bible is the ineffable word of God then evolution is contrary to the truth. I've had these circular thoughts for a long time.

Where are you getting the idea that "we are to believe" this in order to be in AA? And what is wrong with circular logic? There is nothing in AA that says you have to have answers for all of our existence to sober up.

If you do believe in the God of the bible and that the bible is infalliable, then there is your HP.

If you don't believe this, then this thread gives you lots of ways and places to start your belief, or to start the search for your belief, in a HP. Please reread step 2:

Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Note that the bolded words above are not "believed", as in past tense. This is a process, not a singular event.

needtobefree · 07-16-2007, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Where are you getting the idea that "we are to believe" this in order to be in AA? And what is wrong with circular logic? There is nothing in AA that says you have to have answers for all of our existence to sober up.

I'm not saying we have to believe that to be a member of AA. I'm talking about my previous processes and the circular thoughts that leave me feeling like a dog chasing it's tail and lead me nowhere.

I appreciate your thoughts, thank you :0)

hopeOct31 · 07-16-2007, 04:16 PM

Thanks for the discussion. I have a BS and MS in a scientific field, so as you might expect I strongly believe in evolution...but I am not one to tell people they cannot have a different belief than me.

Personally, even though I believe in evolution, I think there still has to be a HP that started the first organism that evolved. And there is something bigger than me that has directed the evolution.
Just my thoughts

GlassPrisoner · 07-16-2007, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity

I've been reading that differently just recently. I used to basically stop at "Came to believe", and sub-consciously substituted the words "in a power greater than ourselves".

I think the second half is just as, if not more important then the first. "could restore us to sanity...." Because of my HP, I now know that it won’t be different this time if I drink. I also know that I cannot control everything and everyone around me through use of my will power.

I think we get too wrapped up in defining our HP. My HP, by His nature, is wholly indefinable and incomprehensible anyway...

jimhere · 07-16-2007, 07:45 PM

From Bill Wilson himself:

"Instead of regarding ourselves as intelligent agents, spearheads of God's ever advancing Creation, we agnostics and athiests chose to believe that our human intelligence was the last word, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and end of all. Rather vain of us, wasn't it?"
Alcoholics Anonymous, Chapter 4, page 49

I don't how being taught evolution would impede a person here, since Bill, by referring to God's ever advancing creation, implied an evolutionary process. In fact, I'm a spearhead of it, an intelligent one!

I won't go into my personal beliefs about evolution vs. creationism. I'll just say this-don't be fettered by superstition, tradition, and all sorts of fixed ideas. Take the spirit of inquiry into the spiritual realm.
Jim

Music · 07-17-2007, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by needtobefree

It occurred to me today that those of us brought up in schools that taught evolution as fact may well struggle with the higher power concept of AA more than others. I was mulling this over the other morning and thinking well am I being egotistical because I'm reserved about there being a higher power (God) and then thought - no it's because I was never told there was an option, just evolution taught as fact!

Hey, I believe evolution is a fact. All I have to do is look around and I can see evolution taking place. I also happen to believe God created evolution. It's all part of the plan!

NoelleR · 07-17-2007, 08:15 AM

Hey There needtobefree ----

I just wanted to address a couple of things you've posted here:

1) You said, "...It occurred to me today that those of us brought up in schools that taught evolution as fact..."That's not how I remember it in the UK though

" ....... Perhaps you're misremembering? Just a thought..... besides which, evolution should NEVER have been taught as fact; it's not called the THEORY of evolution for nuttin' LOL

2) You also said, "...this is where I find it difficult. If we are to believe that God created the earth and that the Bible is the ineffable word of God then evolution is contrary to the truth. I've had these circular thoughts for a long time..." ...... Perhaps the logic is as bit flawed here....? Believing that God created the earth and that the Bible is the infallible word of God does NOT make evolution contrary to the truth---just contrary to one's understanding of 'the truth'..... (o: as you've probably already read here, there are many who believe both......... SCIENCE and RELIGION are a lot closer than many people believe...... (o:

NoelleR
DOS: 6/23/86

P.S. and, btw....there are many recovered atheists in AA; I got and stayed sober as an atheist.....no external hp, pie-in-the-sky, celestial sugardaddy for me.....and it worked, and still works.....call it ego; call it whatever you want, but for me, my HP was, and still is (for recovery purposes, anyway) ------ ME.....the me I will be tomorrow as long as I don't pick up today...... (o:

07-15-2007, 08:27 PM	#1 (permalink)
needtobefree Open Minded Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: In recovery Posts: 224	Those of us brought up with evolution taught as fact It occurred to me today that those of us brought up in schools that taught evolution as fact may well struggle with the higher power concept of AA more than others. I was mulling this over the other morning and thinking well am I being egotistical because I'm reserved about there being a higher power (God) and then thought - no it's because I was never told there was an option, just evolution taught as fact! __________________ Recovery means saying yes to health, growth and happiness, freedom and spiritual development. It means saying yes to life and to love :0)

07-15-2007, 08:56 PM	#2 (permalink)
dgillz Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Mobile, AL Posts: 1,081	The HP concept in AA does not mean God. Even if you choose to call your HP God, it does not mean "creator". Even if you choose to believe that your HP called God is the creator, that does not invalidate evolution. They are not mutually exclusive. I do not follow your logic at all. __________________ If the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, then all your problems look like nails....

07-15-2007, 09:02 PM	#3 (permalink)
Sav Sav Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: NYC,NY Posts: 128	Well... Is it really? Religious people have to deal with inconsistancy in there beliefs on a regular basis. That's the part where "faith" comes in. Besides, evolution could always be wrong...I'm waiting for them to explain how they fit all those huge dinosaurs into a tiny phone booth at frat parties!!! __________________ "Taanstafl!" (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch!) (Robert Heinlein)

07-15-2007, 10:54 PM	#5 (permalink)
CarolD Forum Leader Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dallas, Ga. USA Posts: 16,037	I am a simple person... My God created evolution __________________ Each Day Sober Is A Victory!! Joy In AA Recovery!

07-15-2007, 11:01 PM	#6 (permalink)
best Don't get undies in a bunch Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: South Shore MA Posts: 7,184	I was brought up with the evolution teachings but I know in my heart who God is. True or not ... evolution is a possibility. From the beginnings of life to this day...the things that have happened or guessed at as to what happened... I don't see where it is important for how I deal with life today. Evolution, big bang, or as what is written in the biblle as solid truth...still comes down to... God did it and I am here. How I got here doesn't help me deal with todays moments...so untill I can ask God face to face..what is the truth on that...I don't worry about it. __________________ * I asked God to spare me pain. God said "No", Suffering draws you apart from worldly cares and brings you closer to me. Recovery Related Acronym B. E. S. T. = Been Enjoying Sobriety Today?

07-16-2007, 12:11 AM	#7 (permalink)
CarolD Forum Leader Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dallas, Ga. USA Posts: 16,037	(((need))) When I was in school...I did learn many things evelution ...archery...chemistry tables...sewing... none of which made a whit of difference in my life. God did and does. Knock Knock? __________________ Each Day Sober Is A Victory!! Joy In AA Recovery!

07-16-2007, 12:11 AM	#8 (permalink)
needtobefree Open Minded Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: In recovery Posts: 224	Interesting posts, thanks for the responses. I'm not saying that I believe evolution is necessarily true or creation, I'm reserved about them both and the in between beliefs that God created us via evolution. I guess I am sure about nothing, perhaps that is the problem :0) __________________ Recovery means saying yes to health, growth and happiness, freedom and spiritual development. It means saying yes to life and to love :0)

07-16-2007, 12:16 AM	#9 (permalink)
historyteach To Life! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 8,270	Need, Evolution is not taught as "fact." It's taught as scientific theory. Shalom! __________________ IMAGINE

07-16-2007, 12:19 AM	#10 (permalink)
needtobefree Open Minded Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: In recovery Posts: 224	That's not how I remember it in the UK though :0) __________________ Recovery means saying yes to health, growth and happiness, freedom and spiritual development. It means saying yes to life and to love :0)

07-16-2007, 09:53 AM	#11 (permalink)
fraankie Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: brooklyn, new york Posts: 1,402	well, my first time around i didn't get the higher power thing at alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llll\but when i became "willing" as in willingness is the key as in, 3rd step well, for quite a while the group was my higher power here were others willing to stay sober, like me and then, my higher power became a sort of this or that to where, today, i rely on "my higher power" best fraankie p,s, i remember someone sharing the doorknob to the group was his higher power so.................. to each, his own

07-16-2007, 11:54 AM	#12 (permalink)
Debaucher Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Cleveland Ohio Posts: 274	My degree is a BE in education... I was certified to teach biology in grades 7-12 I don't believe that evolution should be taught as fact. I think when it was taught to me the distiction between theory and Law were discussed... but after it was over much of us thought the theory was fact... As a teacher I unfotunately never got to teach evolution... I think the danger is that you become so rigid in your beliefs... when you completely loose your humility... when you believe you cannot be wrong... You miss the truth when it is staring you in the face... HEY people thought the earth was flat once... people thought the sun revolved around the earth once... etc... etc... Science and religion... sometimes oil and water... Personally I believe I am not all knowing... and if religion tells me X and science says Y and I think that X is not equal to Y... then perhaps... I don't know enough to see how they are both correct! I don't care that science says the earth is <<<pick a number>>> years old... and the bible says... <fill in the blank> and they are not the same... oh well... it doens't mean either is wrong... I choose to believe both... the difference is... science could be wrong and they might change their mind... as they learn more... __________________ --- I pray that I don't forget what it was like to be newly sober. ---

07-16-2007, 12:18 PM	#13 (permalink)
liveweyerd Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: central Florida Posts: 7,292 Blog Entries: 5	There is a school of thought that teaches process theology with means both are part of the whole. That growth is ongoing in all, an evolving process, as God evolves as well as nature and humans. So as Best said, it is not mutually exclusive. What a planet we live in/on! eh? __________________ Each small candle lights a corner of the dark....Roger Waters

07-16-2007, 04:16 PM	#18 (permalink)
hopeOct31 Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Indiana Posts: 35	Thanks for the discussion. I have a BS and MS in a scientific field, so as you might expect I strongly believe in evolution...but I am not one to tell people they cannot have a different belief than me. Personally, even though I believe in evolution, I think there still has to be a HP that started the first organism that evolved. And there is something bigger than me that has directed the evolution. Just my thoughts

07-16-2007, 07:45 PM	#20 (permalink)
jimhere Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 1,314	From Bill Wilson himself: "Instead of regarding ourselves as intelligent agents, spearheads of God's ever advancing Creation, we agnostics and athiests chose to believe that our human intelligence was the last word, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and end of all. Rather vain of us, wasn't it?" Alcoholics Anonymous, Chapter 4, page 49 I don't how being taught evolution would impede a person here, since Bill, by referring to God's ever advancing creation, implied an evolutionary process. In fact, I'm a spearhead of it, an intelligent one! I won't go into my personal beliefs about evolution vs. creationism. I'll just say this-don't be fettered by superstition, tradition, and all sorts of fixed ideas. Take the spirit of inquiry into the spiritual realm. Jim __________________ "I am large, I contain multitudes." -Walt Whitman

07-17-2007, 08:15 AM	#22 (permalink)
NoelleR Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 614	Hey There needtobefree ---- I just wanted to address a couple of things you've posted here: 1) You said, "...It occurred to me today that those of us brought up in schools that taught evolution as fact..."That's not how I remember it in the UK though " ....... Perhaps you're misremembering? Just a thought..... besides which, evolution should NEVER have been taught as fact; it's not called the THEORY of evolution for nuttin' LOL 2) You also said, "...this is where I find it difficult. If we are to believe that God created the earth and that the Bible is the ineffable word of God then evolution is contrary to the truth. I've had these circular thoughts for a long time..." ...... Perhaps the logic is as bit flawed here....? Believing that God created the earth and that the Bible is the infallible word of God does NOT make evolution contrary to the truth---just contrary to one's understanding of 'the truth'..... (o: as you've probably already read here, there are many who believe both......... SCIENCE and RELIGION are a lot closer than many people believe...... (o: NoelleR DOS: 6/23/86 P.S. and, btw....there are many recovered atheists in AA; I got and stayed sober as an atheist.....no external hp, pie-in-the-sky, celestial sugardaddy for me.....and it worked, and still works.....call it ego; call it whatever you want, but for me, my HP was, and still is (for recovery purposes, anyway) ------ ME.....the me I will be tomorrow as long as I don't pick up today...... (o: