Interesting thing I saw last night.

[Tazman53]

Last night as I was working steps 6-8 with my sponsor I brought out a thought I had on the step seven prayer to him:

"My Creator, I am now willing that you should have all of me, good and bad. I pray that you now remove from me every single defect of character which stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellows. Grant me strength, as I go out from here, to do your bidding. Amen." We have then completed Step Seven.


® 1994 Serenity BBS

I said "Jake I noticed it does not say every single defect but only the ones that stand in the way of me being useful to my HP." He kind of chuckled and said he was going to point that out, that there were certain character defects then if applied properly could be put to good use, one excellent example is manipulation can be used for the good. Like manipulating a new person to see or do some thing they should be doing.

[Grasshopper]

Beg to differ.Of course what your sponsor says is not in the BB.We are encouraged,to be---honest ----
ive had others try to manipuate me.Come on,plussssssse,,dont think for one minitue that me being the alkie that i am,that i didnt smell this rat right awaylol..I caught on,and have sence let these folks go.As a member i want honesty,from others.Im tired of da bull,.The games.
truth comes out.If another thinks for one minute that i have manipulated them in some fashion,even if i think its for their own good,i hope that they would call me on it.I dont know whats good for another.All i can do is guide folks in the 12 steps,sharring,how the steps work into my life.No tricks.No manipulation.I dont have to live like that anymore.Honesty,is my goal.
Thanks for letting me share,
God Bless,

[laurie6781]

Like manipulating a new person to see or do some thing they should be doing.

Taz I beg to differ with your sponsor. That is not in the BB. No where in the BB does it tell us to manipulate for the good of someone else.

When working with another, we share our ES&H and let it be. It is up to the individual to decide what they will do. There are no "Shoulds" for others. The only one I can change is ME.

I have never seen manipulation as a defect I would want to keep. Now my bullheadedness and stubborness, YES. Over the years I have been able to turn that into tenacity. The tenacity to complete what I start, lol. It's made a big difference in this alkie's life.

Please remember Taz, your sponsor is just another Human Being..............................when something doesn't sound right to your ears, ask. Ask others if need be, and, of course, go read the BB some more and see if you can find it in there.

J M H O

Love and hugs,

[Tazman53]

Laurie I did not say it said that in the BB nor did my sponsor, but there are certain things that when used for the bad such as manipulation that when applied in a good way can benefit others. By manipulation I am speaking of sharing something in a manner that would cause someone to look at something they are doing or not doing that could help them.

An example would be getting a new comer to look at a problem they are blaming on some one else by sharing how you used to feel the same way about that, but you found that when you really examined the problem you found that in your case it turned out it was your own fault and not the other persons. You have not told them they are wrong, you have manipulated them into rethinking their original thoughts.

Manipulation is not always lying, here is one of the posotive definitions of "manipulate" in the dictionary.

to handle, manage, or use, esp. with skill, in some process of treatment or performance: to manipulate a large tractor.

I agree that when some one speaks of manupulation it is generally thought of in negative terms, but not in the way we were talking about.

Teachers manipulate students all the time with out lying or deceiving them. When you get someone to look at something differently with out telling them they are wrong or lying to them it is still manipulation.

[Cathy31]

i thnk just unfortunate use of words...manipulation is never good. we are not God. That's what we're tryng to address! Laurie, great to hear your wisdom. Tazman, your recovery s great to watch and i love that prayer thanks for postng!
cathy31
x

[SaTiT]

Yeap... my sponsor drill the word apropriate into my
head for some reason. i wasn't on those steps yet,
But it made sense to me when I got there.

mmm...it's call reverse phychology.
I was **** off at that world before I got sober.
I thought I was just going stop drinking for a little while.
i couldn't get into rehab. So i went to a drug conselor.
I waited and waited, then the old fart came out
a couple of hours later and told me he wasn't going
to help me becuase I was a smart ass know it all punk.
He told me I couldn't get sober even if I wanted to.
He told me that I didn't have what it took to get sober.
He told me AA was down the street and I didn't have
what it took to go to those meetings for 30 days.

I got so freanken mad at the old fart. i went to AA
for 30 days just prove him wrong.
AA mess up my buzz.lol

Another example of not removing a charecter is
when a person is drowning. Sometimes you have
to knock him the hell out. It is doen through goodwill.
I agree with Tazz...cuase i looked up the word manipulate.
I manipulate my keyboard to type certain words...

[Tazman53]

I have a strong feeling that if I had used another word instead of manipulate there would be no discussion, here is the definition according to Webster:

manipulate
One entry found for manipulate.


Main Entry: ma·nip·u·late
Pronunciation: m&-'ni-py&-"lAt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -lat·ed; -lat·ing
Etymology: back-formation from manipulation, from French, from manipuler to handle an apparatus in chemistry, ultimately from Latin manipulus
1 : to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner

There are 2 other definitions that follow it, that are both negative which is what I was an expert at!

If I had used the word influence instead I really do not feel there would have been and issue, when we share we are hoping our ESH will influence others.

Main Entry: 2influence
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -enced; -enc·ing
1 : to affect or alter by indirect or intangible means : SWAY
2 : to have an effect on the condition or development of : MODIFY
synonym see AFFECT

[GlassPrisoner]

I agree Taz, that's how I read the 7th step prayer too. Not all of our defects of character, only the ones that stand in the way of our being usefull to others.

Manipulate was a bad choice of words, hence the debate. IMO.

[Sheryl85]

Taz,

I understand what you are saying about manipulation. For those of us in the education business we recognize it is at times an essential tool. The usual connotation of the word is a negative one, however, it isn’t always necessarily so. Which leads me to the other thought I had when I read your original post…

It wasn’t too long after working on Steps Six and Seven that I made an important discovery that the Seventh Step Pray led me to which is, “I really wouldn't recognize what a character defect was if it came up and bit me on the butt.” Okay, so it wasn't quite that bad, but it sure seemed like it at the time. In the end I discovered that the key to success was that I must let my Higher Power make that determination. (After all, my best thinking got me to where I was in the first place.) Some of the items I pegged as one of my more "grosser" defect of character happen to have been one of my better traits that I had not applied in the most appropriate manner. (As a side note, I had to go back to my Fourth Step and add some things to it because I forgot that it is supposed to be a “moral” inventory…not an immoral inventory. There’s supposed to be good things as well as the bad. That’s what a true inventory is for.) My sponsor was instrumental in helping me uncover and discover the times where I had reacted in a negative manner in situations as opposed to the times when using the same character trait I had acted in a positive manner. Take for example stubbornness. She helped me discover the times when I was being stubborn as in being obstinate or inflexible and the times when I was showing persistence and tenacity. (Like my being stubborn and not accepting the diagnosis of ADD and emotionally disturbed that was given to my son. It turned out to be that he was actually suffering from a form of autisum.)

Today, I have to trust that God, when asked, will take away those things, those shortcomings, which stand in the way of my usefulness to Him. (Sometimes if I’d just stick to the obvious ones, like say the Seven Deadly Sins, the “biggies” then things could be sooo much easier. But we alcoholics seem to always over do or under do everything we try to do.) I also have to be willing to let them go…

My friend, I’m glad to see that you are finding the joy in the journey. Keep up the good work.

[Carol87]

I can be easily MOTIVATED ~~~~ just don't ever consider trying to manipulate me ...

[Tazman53]

Poor choice of words! Oh well it was not the first time I have put my foot in my mouth and it will not be the last! LOL

[Grasshopper]

Hi again,i dont think that its so much as poor choice of words,as i do think its a poor choice of your sponsor,s thinking.That one actually has the power to change anothers mind.When i share,with another alocholic,i dont have it in the back of my mind,here,s one im gonna influnce/manipulate into them thinking/doing differently.If another does make changes,its because they have made this decision to make changes.If i think im influncing another and they go back out,do i take responsibility in this too,feeling bad because my influncing/manipulating skills are not good enough?,No i think not.When one cofounder went to visit another in hospital he said--im not here to get you sober.Im here to get me sober.And so started the relationship...I share openly,with no intentions of the out-come of another.Hoepfully they will choose for themselves to follow program,if not...Thats why you dont see,this type of thinking in the BB,.If i take credit for influncing,another they go back out,ive just set myself up for the next drink too,if im feeling responsible/remorse,because my skills failed another.have i not?..I take no responsibility for another if they get sober or not.I share.What they do with it is not my bussiness.No trick,on my part.Folks change because they have the desire within them to make changes.Its between them and God.In al-anon their is a saying that one sticks to,,we didnt cause the alcoholism,we cant cure it,and we cannot control this person nor their disease....Remain humble.

[jimhere]

Notice it doesn't say "remove all the defects that make me feel bad." Just the ones that are in the way of me being useful.

God uses me the way I am, not the way I think I should be.
Jim

[Tazman53]

So Grasshopper when you share your ESH with a sponsee you don't try and share what may be of help to him?

When my first sponsor told me to call him and 2 other AA members every day, but to not bother to call him if I had already started drinking do you think he may have been trying to sway, modify, or treat me in a manner that would have an effect on whether or not I drank?

[laurie6781]

do you think he may have been trying to sway, modify, or treat me in a manner that would have an effect on whether or not I drank?

Yep he might have been. Guess that is why I have never yet told a sponsee to call me before they drank or not to call me if they had, just to call me.

Yes, there are several meanings for the word manipulate, however, most alkies think of it in the negative as many of us used 'manipulation' to the max to get what we wanted, rofl.

It's is still an EXCELLENT THREAD Taz, and it sure makes me smile to see how you are growing and changing!

Love and hugs,

[Tazman53]

Thanks Laurie, love and hugs right back. I still have to work on being to sensative when something I say is taken the wrong way! LOL

Hon when I was out there I was the master manipulator of any one who didn't know me. I have a lot of folks I owe amends to that I don't even know thier names.

I agree that the word manipulate is viewed mainly as a negative, my sponsor and I think a lot alike and I knew exactly what he meant when he said it and it sure was not in a negative manner, as a matter of fact it was something his sponsor had shared at a meeting. His sponsor was a alcohol and drug rehab counselor for several years and he was taught how to get a new person into recovery to see things in a different manner.

His sponsor said that due to how manipulative he was when he was out there, he was able to get people he was working with to see something by sharing with them how he had seen it.

Maybe a better way to have said it would have been the gift of gab! There is one that I have used for both good and evil! LOL

Am I simply digging this hole deeper? LOL

[Grasshopper]

Hi,again,,smile,,nope dont think your sponsor was trying to influnce,sway,you in telling you this,about not calling him.he may be like me,and find that when talking to one who has already been drinking,youre talking to da wall...lol

[paulmh]

By manipulation I am speaking of sharing something in a manner that would cause someone to look at something they are doing or not doing that could help them.

Trust me - no matter how tempting it might be, and obvious it might seem, we can't "cause" anything! Or - what we "cause" won't be what we intended! Witness some of my recent posts!

So Grasshopper when you share your ESH with a sponsee you don't try and share what may be of help to him?

That's right. I don't. Or at least, I try not to. I can only give my ESH honestly.

[Grasshopper]

It works when i work it.It works when another ,alcoholic,applies the 12 steps into their lives.And me in my life.This is what works...
When sharring,can the other alcoholic,,relate???Well some can relate to me,and others have a look that clearly tells me that they cant relate,in certain things..lol...
Its the AA program,and whats in the BB,that has proven to work!!!,,for the many,many alcoholics.Not me,and not my esh.I ask everyone that i sponsor to not look at me,but look at the program.Im falable.Im in process.Ive witnessed where newcomers have put more faith in their sponsors,esh,and when their sponsors went back out,the newcomer,was devestated,and some almost gave up AA.No,to me its too dangerious .Keep the eyes,on the program itself,and what it says,,THIS works!!!
Thanks for letting me share,
God Bless,

[Tazman53]

Trust me - no matter how tempting it might be, and obvious it might seem, we can't "cause" anything! Or - what we "cause" won't be what we intended! Witness some of my recent posts!

Paul once again I screwed up and used "would" in a place where it was more appropiate to have said "could". If we are not hoping to help a sponsee change by sharing our ESH, then why do we even bother?

If you change nothing, nothing changes.

That's right. I don't. Or at least, I try not to. I can only give my ESH honestly.

Paul Honesty is IMHO the key to sobriety, I will never share anything about my ESH that is not the truth. Do you think I am saying to lie to some one?

The point that I am trying to make which some how is being lost is, when we share our ESH with someone who is struggling we share the part of our ESH that we feel will be helpful to them.

Paul do you simply share your entire ESH every time you share or do you share the portion of your ESH that applies to the topic at the time.

The last thing I would share with any one is a lie.

If I told you I was having a real problem with anger and that is a trigger for me (which I have found is a MAJOR trigger for me), what part of your ESH would you share with me?

If my sponsee needed help in an area that I had no ESH to share with him I would tell him that and then see if I could find some one who could, like my sponsor or grand sponsor, or of course look in the BB.

In many cases it may very well be having to simply turn it over to our HP

[Tazman53]

Grasshopper I concur whole heartedly, I always emphasize how the steps have helped me in dealing with life when sharing, the last thing I would want to share is what Martin thinks and not what is in the BB. I have learned from my sponsor that there is nothing in life that can not be addressed via the steps and the BB.

I do share what not to do and what has not worked for me also, I always make sure that I share that the reason things went wrong for me is because I was not following the steps or what is in the BB.

[PineappleTea]

Whoa, well, I'm new to this forum. But man I saw this thread straight away somehow!

No coincidences.

Probably because the first part of the BB that really spoke to me, even early on, was the part about the director trying to arrange everyone. It still speaks to me today. It's taken me a long time to realize just how comprehensive & deep the problem goes. LOL.

My experience has been that whenever I'm in trouble, it's because other people aren't acting right (lol) and I'm trying to arrange things so the situation works. (read: I'm trying to "help" people "for their own good" or "for all of our good" - yeah right *roll eyes*)

And I find myself in collision, not in harmony.

And if I'm in collision... it's usually not for anyone's good - least of all me!

These days I walk away sooner, and with more ease, but it still happens, I still fall into this pitfall at times.

If I manipulate the keys on my keyboard to type, that's one thing. My keyboard is an OBJECT. I own the keyboard. The keyboard has neither feelings nor a life of its own. (I'm the keyboard's HP. LOL.)

If I'm trying to treat PEOPLE that way... as objects... Well, psychiatrists call that antisocial behaviour.

I've found that most people don't like to be treated that way. !! I know I don't!!!

Originally Posted by Tazman53

If we are not hoping to help a sponsee change by sharing our ESH, then why do we even bother?

Because it helps the sponsor.

That's why Bill W. went to see Dr. Bob.
Dr. Bob asked Bill W. something like "What you could you do to help when clergy & medical professionals couldn't?"
Bill W. said "I'm not here to help you, I'm here to help me."

And that's the way it works.

Even when nothing else does, that works.

When I take care of me, others benefit from it.

When I try to control (manipulate) others, I don't benefit at all, I wind up in collision, and everybody loses.

So when I share ESH... I'm doing it because it helps ME.

And when someone, be it someone listening at a mtg, my sponsor, or my sponsee, hears it, and has a desire of their own, and they take it and learn from it, and apply the information as they choose... And it helps them..... Well that's just beautiful. But that's them and their HP connection helping them. Not me. I have no such power.

When I remember that, and practice that, allowing HP to run the universe...
... that's when my HP has an opportunity to breath serenity into my life, despite whatever other defects, flaws, or faults, still cling to my character. I can have peace, and others around me benefit from that peace.

That's as I see it. (And yes,this has helped me. I really needed this today. I already feel better. Thanks for being here!)

[CarolD]

Welcome to our 12 Step Forum PT...

[Tazman53]

When I try to control (manipulate) others, I don't benefit at all, I wind up in collision, and everybody loses.

Pineapple welcome to SR, I would ask you and some of the others to do as my sponsor asks me to do when reading the BB, he tells me to only read the part in black.

I agree with everything you said except (Unless I am reading the white portion of what you said) what I quoted above, did I ever say that I tried to control anyone? Hell I have a hard enough time controling myself! LOL

Please just read only the black as I type this, when I share with a sponsee or the group it is strictly from my own ESH and what I share is the portion of my ESH that addresses the topic or problem. I am not trying to control anyone.

Read the definitions of the word manipulate, please note that I bolded the "S" in the word definitions. Why?

Well I am an alcoholic and I too tend to still sadly focus on the negative initially, but I am doing a lot better on that, all I ask you to do is read all the definitions of manipulate. If you do read all of them you will see what I was trying to say.

Let us play a game, a word game!

I am gay!

According to the dictionary gay means:

gay
4 entries found for gay.
To select an entry, click on it.
gay[1,adjective]gay[2,noun]GayGay-Lussac

Main Entry: 1gay
Pronunciation: 'gA
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French gai, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German gAhi quick, sudden
1 a : happily excited : MERRY <in a gay mood> b : keenly alive and exuberant : having or inducing high spirits <a bird's gay spring song>
2 a : BRIGHT, LIVELY <gay sunny meadows> b : brilliant in color
3 : given to social pleasures; also : LICENTIOUS
4 a : HOMOSEXUAL <gay men> b : of, relating to, or used by homosexuals <the gay rights movement> <a gay bar>
synonym see LIVELY
- gay adverb
- gay·ness noun

Now unless you are from the early to middle part of the 20th century you initially thought I am a homosexual..... be honest, you know you did because when you saw the word "gay" that was the first thing that popped into your head.

Guess what you are dead wrong! I am straight as an arrow. Now read again the definition of "Gay", I am the #1 definition of gay!

Do I try to control anyone, nope, but when I share my ESH with some one who is seeking help with something, I share with them what may benefit them if they are like me. This helps me & possibly the person I have shared it with. If it did not help us both why do we share?

[Grasshopper]

Hi and welcome!!! Pineapple tea!!!!