Question on Step 4/5...

[Mercedes1]

Hi, I am at 92 days. I do not have a sponsor at this time so would like to ask for feedback on YOUR experiences for you (not others). And I would like to avoid the "sponsor thumping" if at all possible. The sponsors have not been a good tool in my case. So I (for one) don't think that pushing them on people is always the right thing. A good sales person doesn't make a good manager. And I, unfortunately, keep getting the not so good sponsors.
To recap, the first was one I grabbed my first day in AA..because I was told to do that ASAP..she was clearly not right for me. .although she was compassionate, caring and seemed interested in my sobriety. ..she was addicted to pain killers, a smoke-aholic, codependent and man dependent. She also had a very bad mouth.....ENd result..I was depressed every time around her,,. didnt feel the need to call her...She didn't have what I want.

Second gal had over 10yrs...younger than me, beautiful, led a group and had a very good sharing. She basically had no communication skills however outside of that . No genuine interest in me as her sponsee...left messages on other peoples phone (twice...weeks apart) and told me days/weeks later that she had the wrong "me"????? Never returned my messages for days or weeks..sometimes never acknowledged them. Never called "me" to encourage...never "knew" me as a result. So i fired her.

So..lets just say I cringe when people do the sponsor thumping. I am new and don't need any more guilt or questioning my value and direction to a sponsor that is not there for me. I have since asked 2 more people and they said they couldn't fit another person in. So, lets be done with it and move on.

So,, I am approaching the steps with everyone's direction (so as to not limit to myself...I don't intend to rely on me..I never was not open and still am not for direction but I do have some sense).

I am confused on four. If this is about just listing my character defects why do so many people push ANGER, resentment? Why is it "assumed" that is the main flaw? What if you live your life not letting the sun go down being angry. What if you avoid grudges and ask forigiveness to God and to that person (for as much as is within reason) and deal with it as best you can ALREADY?......

Basically I "hate" noone? Except for evil criminals and people that hurt children. .....

I have asked God to forigve me for my issues and for the most part apologized to everyone I directly hurt within reason. Any issues not done..meaning...I don't blame myself for everything...I deal with it to not ruin mylife. I could list my sister, for example, as she hurt me and basically never apologized or acknowledged..(she doesnt think she did anything wrong)...doesn't change the way I feel though. I don't hate her with me..just feel she could have done something better. It bothers me as I have had to deal with alot of uncomfortableness from her actions but there was basically not much "undoing" I could do at the time. I do plan to address this issue with her but to be honest..there has not been a good time (yet) and when I do make the time..may end up blowing up even worse ..but I'll deal with that too. Bottom line, I am not ashamed to deal with it best I can.

Anyway..doesn't some people make this worse with this approach to resentment? I have some people label the 4th step as "resentment"??? I was given a sheet to help me with this...and it had 3 pages for 'resentments"??? one page for fear and other for sex? that is assuming these are my issues? And in that order?

This approach is like asking someone to "create" issues with people "or else" you are not doing this right>? Maybe anger and resentment could very well be the crutch for most but not everyone. Eveyone that drinks drinks for different reasons. And how you were raised and what you learned along the way is different. The steps are a guide and help for those that need it...hense isn't it worth expecting some people to deal with it differently than others?

At many respects I have been dealing wih the steps before AA. It is how I believe I just have not delt with it within AA in a formal way.... Anyway..

the other question...should this be character flaws like selfishness, jelousy, controlling sprit, critical tongue..insecurity...lact of trust..not just resentment? And shouldnt we ALSO list good qualities? I don't want to dam myself too much.

I am just confused. They also say it shold not be 100 pages. It should not be an Uuto-biography of "me"..it should be simple, concise, not alot of drama ...so can peopel give me examples???? Your experiences on what worked for YOU..any forms or templates that you used to keep you from making this 100 pages and kept yoru answers focused and not alot of drama???? Please send me yours..Thanks.

[CarolD]

You may not have noticed this..and it might help

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/step-study/

Blessings

[best]

We all have baggage. We carry it with us all the time.
Listing out the baggage is the first thing we do. Looking for reasons why we have the baggage starts us on a path towards finding solutions that allow us to let go of the baggage and get on with life. You say you don't have anger? What is the base emotion that had you think of your sister's actions against you?
The bible calls us to an even higher degree of working the steps then the AA books do. and Peter said... forgive them 7 times? No Peter forgive them as many times as forgiveness is needed said the Lord (70 times 7).
Love even your enemies.
Turn the other cheek.
Forgive as you have been forgiven.

None of us are perfect so I know that you are like me and don't live up to God's standard 100% either. We may try but we fall short.
Step 4 helps us find answers by listing out the things that bother us and then we find solutions through amends and forgiveness of self and others.

What if you live your life not letting the sun go down being angry. What if you avoid grudges and ask forigiveness to God and to that person (for as much as is within reason) and deal with it as best you can ALREADY?......

I still have things pop into my thoughts from time to time. Resentments from long ago that never came to mind till now. Issues that my human nature didn't deal with before the sun went down. Forgiveness towards others that I didn't give when I should have and forgiveness of self for my own sins of the past.
Step work is like house cleaning. When first done, we remove the big boulders of life. A second time through we may be removing the small rocks. For the remainder of life, we may be removing grains of sand. Progress forward is our goal.

[BrandiK]

The reason, I think, that you work with anger and resentments first is to find a way to remove the second party from the picture, and see your own flaws. It's pretty amazing when it happens. But it also gets the ball rolling. It's a tools. Believe me, it's not at all focused on anger and resentments in the end.

I thought that too, actually, about the 4th and 5th steps I don't mean that condisendingly (excuse my spelling ... coffee isn't all the way in my system yet ) I practice a faith that basically is about inner truth, and work spirituality within a community of exactly that (well, it's supposed to be that ... as you can see ... I discovered a few resentments lurking in my psychie). I work with mirror and shadow work with others on a regular basis, speak my truth, work through issues, look at myself and the parts I choose not to or even am unable to see ... so I got to step 4 and thought 'I do this already'. Also, the anger I did have (because we all do from time to time) I worked with praying for that person(s) and my anger disolved.

So what was I to do? I tried listing those people that I hurt only, and my own flaws, but I kept getting stuck. Have you read the BB and the 12X12 on this step? I liked reading that some either on on a high horse (it's all their fault) and some on a low pity party (it's all my fault). I landed on a pity party myself ... somewhere in between but more on the pity party side.

Anyway ... I tried to do it on my own with out resentments. Didn't work. So ... I started it when I was processing and in a bad mood. Stound strange? I was not 'through' my resentments, I was right in the thick of them. And once I started, I covered about 3 pages. Many were also used for everything else ... the resentments really helped me to see some shadow sides of myself that I am completely blind to and I am very thankful I was able to pull them out. Some were just silly resentments, some were deep and painful. I thought I had gotten past it, but I was still holding on.

And like I said, I discovered some stuff about myself that I had never seen before. It was all right there, spelled out basically in black and white on those worksheets, on the resentments page.

I used step 4 work sheets, and they really, really helped me out a lot.

Take your time. Don't feel like you have to fill it out a particular way. Just open to the experiance. Do a little at a time or all at once, as you move through it. Then, when you do finish (you'll find stuff in there, believe me. Even if it's just the guy that cut you off this morning on the freeway .. it's there. We, none of us, drunk or sober, are perfect.) sit with it a bit longer, see if anything else bubbles up.

Through out the process, when you are over this initial hump, go to meetings, read your books, talk online, etc. It can get a little dark.

[Slowbriety]

sounds like you need to go back to step one.


But, for me, my 4th step was 80 pages. It was done as it is outlined in the book and with guidence from my sponsor. To me, the whole point of doing a 4th and 5th is to get down to what makes me tick, why i do the things i do and to find solutions if that old behavior pops back up.


you are going to do what you want to do, but, i could not have done it with out my sponsor.

[Golfman]

Originally Posted by Mercedes1

Hi, I am at 92 days. I do not have a sponsor at this time so would like to ask for feedback on YOUR experiences for you (not others).

No where in the program of AA as written in the Big Book does it mention the word "sponsor" The reasons you stated very straightforward and I would encourage you to follow your heart. I think I know you well enought that your relationship with God is steadfast and firm.

Originally Posted by Mercedes1

I am new and don't need any more guilt or questioning my value and direction. So, lets be done with it and move on.

If anyone at AA or any sponsor questioned your value they were dead wrong in my book. You have great value not only to yourself, but to others. The best direction I know of is the direction that I seek from God every day.

Originally Posted by Mercedes1

So,, I am approaching the steps with everyone's direction (so as to not limit to myself...I don't intend to rely on me..I never was not open and still am not for direction but I do have some sense).

Of course you do. You make more sense than even you may realise. This can be a very practical rather than a clinical approach. I've often found that in some cases, a clinical or rigid approach, (by the book) has not worked for every individual.

Originally Posted by Mercedes1

I am confused on four. If this is about just listing my character defects why do so many people push ANGER, resentment? Why is it "assumed" that is the main flaw? What if you live your life not letting the sun go down being angry. What if you avoid grudges and ask forigiveness to God and to that person (for as much as is within reason) and deal with it as best you can ALREADY?......Basically I "hate" no one? Except for evil criminals and people that hurt children. .....

Merc, you may be the exception rather than the rule. Most alcoholics, not all, have let anger and resentments be the guiding force in their lives. On rare occasion (your experience) some folks have had a very good relationshio with God and have carried out His will for as long as they can remember. It sounds to me like you were in that position long before you got into recovery. Very rare, but certainly possible even thought you were drinking.

Originally Posted by Mercedes1

I have asked God to forigve me for my issues and for the most part apologized to everyone I directly hurt within reason. Anyway..don't some people make this worse with this approach to resentment? I have some people label the 4th step as "resentment"??? I was given a sheet to help me with this...and it had 3 pages for 'resentments"??? one page for fear and other for sex? that is assuming these are my issues? And in that order?

They are handled in that order in the Big Book of AA. But again, these are just suggestions, not orders. Even the founding 100 said very clearly that this was the way that worked for them. They respected the opinions of doctors. clergy, and others who might be of assistance. The program of AA was not intended to present itself as the "end all" when it comes to fighting this disease or recovering from it.

Originally Posted by Mercedes1

This approach is like asking someone to "create" issues with people "or else" you are not doing this right? Maybe anger and resentment could very well be the crutch for most but not everyone. Eveyone that drinks drinks for different reasons. And how you were raised and what you learned along the way is different. The steps are a guide and help for those that need it...hense isn't it worth expecting some people to deal with it differently than others?

Absolutely, there are as many ways to use the steps as a guide as there are alcoholics. I have personally witnessed the "creation" of guilt and resentment in order to fit a square peg into a round hole. I would be cautious in using the word "crutch" however. Anger and resentment are usually reasons to drink. The word "crutch" implies that one might need them just to make it through their day. Althought, I haven't met everyone in the world so maybe there are some who use them as a crutch.

Originally Posted by Mercedes1

In many respects I have been dealing wih the steps before AA. It is how I believe I just have not dealt with it within AA in a formal way

Yes you have. Since I believe the steps were inspired by God, I have no doubt that they have their basis in the bible. In fact, I had one gentleman show me the bood of the bible that inspired them. I wish I could remember it right now but I don't. It is also just my opinion that because so many alcoholics have trouble with the concept of God, that the steps were worded in a way that may have been more pratical to read.

Originally Posted by Mercedes1

Anyway..the other question...should this be character flaws like selfishness, jelousy, controlling sprit, critical tongue..insecurity...lact of trust..not just resentment? And shouldnt we ALSO list good qualities? I don't want to damn myself too much.

Yes, yes, yes...you are dead on with your insight!!!!! The flaws mentioned above are the major flaws that are in many respects the underly reasons or "exact nature" if you will that cause us so much harm. If you have identified them through self examination or have been shown by God that you have these flaws, you have identified that which step 4 is trying to accomplish. And....yes, an inventory does include not only the bad bu also the good. My approach in working with others on step 4 has always been to let them know that while damaged goods may be identified in any inventory, the "good stuff" is there as well. Your statement reagarding "damning yourself" is very important. The result of step 4 is not to simply run ourselves into the ground. It is to identify, as you have, key flaws in our character that we can recognise and accept. When identified and discussed with a trusted friend, advisor, or clergyman, and of course with God,you have moved through Step 5

Originally Posted by Mercedes1

I am just confused. They also say it should not be 100 pages. It should not be an Uuto-biography of "me"..it should be simple, concise, not a lot of drama ...so can people give me examples???? Your experiences on what worked for YOU..any forms or templates that you used to keep you from making this 100 pages and kept yoru answers focused and not a lot of drama???? Please send me yours..Thanks.

Many people, without clear direction, have written reams about themselves. They've listed every event in their live, listed everything they did wrong. This is not about the actions we did (ie. I had an affair, or had a fight with my spouse), this is the identification of underlying causes and conditions of why we did what we did. As it says "the exact NATURE of our wrongs" not an entire list of them.

Merc, you may only have 92 days, but you're insight and faith have carried you far beyond where I was after 90 days. It's so obvious that you are on the right path. I admire you so much for the honesty you display in your questions. The practical way you are working your recovery is both refreshing and educational for me. Thank you.

Oh, one more thing. The feedback you get may vary significantly. As they say in AA, "take what you need and leave the rest."

Yours in sobriety,
ED

[Mercedes1]

Slowbriety..I am 92 days with 2 sponsors that I had every working reason to drink over if I didn't believe I was powerless over alchohol A(step 1 at his deepest and darkest)..... and basically i am one of the few (it seems in my AA meetings anyway that i attend) that do not use meetings, steps or sponsors as "reasons" to go back out. As I DEFINITELY take step 1-3 very, very seriously...nothing and I mean NOTHING comes between me and a drink but God. And as Long as I know HE is there..I remain (sober). However I am at the point I need to move on from that as I also "get it" that not drinking is not enough. My God (higher power) is pulling me to move on...I WANT to know why I drank..I feel the uncomfortableness that used to get me drunk...still there..I have to deal with it. Hense, I am no way in step 1 nor need to go back/

The sponsor thing is just what I said...it hasn't worked out. If you read the BBook you would agree that sponsors need to have somehting you want, they need to know you and take a certain degree of interest BACK or you minz well just share with people at meetings. Neither of the ones I had gave back. I have since asked 2 more and am still open to one...it sucks having to write on a forum for guidance and having noone that will take a personal interest locally with me...but either they have too much on their plate or they don't relate to me.

Don't think I don't already feel WORSE about myself that I may be too difficult, too this/too that..but when I recall all the stuff with my last partner my last few messages to her was HELP ME...and I had no response but weeks later telling me in joking laugh she responsed once again to my message of weeks ago to someone else and didn't realize until now it wsn't me. Ok, now am I really being over the top when I say this person doesn't even know her own sponsees cell number and my voice??? And she did this once before...AND, how comfortable would you be getting to step 4 sharing with someone your most uglies and she may respond back to you to someone else??????

[Mercedes1]

I do know I resent my last Sponsor..she is on my list. But I cleaned my side when I called her 3 times (as she never responded to the first 2)..and sent am email telling her I am done...I am sorry for whateve I did (if there was anything that kept her from reaching back)..perhaps it was some weird "discipoline" to force me to get humble and gravel to her..but I apologized for not getting it..and politely and I mean very politely fired her.

Only response I ever got was a few days later she called and told me she was going on vacation and let's talk w/I get back and never heard from her again.

[Golfman]

Merc,

As you opened yourself for input, even with the qualifications. You may receive varied opinions that might not seem very understanding. Please "take what you need and leave the rest." You don't have to defend yourself to anyone. Some of us know you have the sincerest intentions of helping yourself through these most introspective times.

I don't believe anyone is here to cast stones. If they are, they need help too.

Your friend,
Ed

[Mercedes1]

Ed, thanks for your post and I do realize that.. I guess i feel guilty and it is coming out...guilt for the 2 sponsors not working out..still guilt I don't have one..guilt of want to move on but feeling stagnant...then to be positioned back at a step I do clearly feel I have worked through..I am 92 days...I am not brand new..I have been on steps 1-3 for 3months...clearly I am not dragging here but I also don't feel I need to stay here another 3months either. I think as long as you get you can't drink again..end of story. I get this..I wanted to drink a few times (do right now as a matter of fact) but realize it would be spiritual suicide and not what I need. I just want to get past the questions I have.

I do resent the sponsor thing..not anyones opinions..I don't mind gettnig criticism but not all criticisms are right..and not all my opinions are wrong because I dont have a sponsor...

Anyway, thanks..I guess I can add this to the list...anger of where I am at...

[Slowbriety]

well good luck with whatever you figure out.

They also say it shold not be 100 pages. It should not be an Uuto-biography of "me"..it should be simple, concise, not alot of drama ...

quick question, who is "They?"

[requiredfield]

Keep going to Women's step and big book meetings.. Someone will find you that can help you through this. I wouldn't advise anyone to go it alone. But at the end of the day, I think you could and still stay sober. It can just be difficult, painful, and confusing so why would you want to sell yourself short that way? You don't need a sponsor; it's just a suggestion. But you'll get so much more out of the process by letting someone help you through it.

Hang in there
A

[Mercedes1]

Slowbriety...i refer to "they" as people in some local meetings I attend..(lol)..good question though.... I went to a step meeting and someone was talking that her step she was on was becoming a huge drama about herself...then someone told "her" to not make it an autobiography but keep it simple, questin/answer/solution.. or cause/effect kinda thing and it changed her whole approach. Of course I can't explain it cuz I wasn't in the steps but thought to myself I would do the same thing.. I occassionally write stuff now and tend to write too much but never enough...then lose the desire all together and don't write anything for days/weeks.

That is before any steps...I could use direction and a simple question/answer to help. Anyway..thanks everyone.

[adamjhsober]

Hi,

I am very early in sobriety. I however have done a step 4 and five. I did it out of the big book on resentment, fear, sex conduct. I then asked an old timer who I trusted if I could share it with him. I picked him mainly because I knew he would a) not judge me but at the same time give me realistic feedback & b) I respected his sobriety. He is now my sponsor. I can relate to not feeling a lot of resentment. But I found that the best (most revealing & changing) part of step 4 & five for me was in the questions "where was I dishonest, selfish, self-seeking & frightened? And in the question in the sex conduct section "whom had we hurt?". I found that in my case that I had acquired the habit of completely ignoring the content of my behaviour, words, actions etc and always jumped straight to judging the other in every situation. Part of this came from a feeling of being worthless/valueless or invisible or incapable of affecting someone else in any way. I also found out that I was always fundamentally defensive and had been afraid in every single relationship in my life. So I can relate to the person who posted above that the 4th step isn't just about resentment.

I won't give you any advice (you are sober longer than me apart from anything else). Doing the fourth and fifth step was a positive experience though.

I would say that if for whatever reason the fourth step doesn't make sense to you, then maybe try to find someone (not necessarily a sponsor) to talk it through with. I say this because I did a fourth & fifth step to 'fit in' five years ago and relapsed after 3 & 1/2 years sobriety. In my case I didn't understand the fourth step at that time because I suppressed my feelings so much & was frozen solid so I didn't readily feel anything, resentments or anything else. I do think it can be very important to understand and feel why you do it.

To be honest I have been lucky in that the sponsor I have really is very good - he is straight with me, very empathetic, always available although it is my responsibility to call him and really not judgemental at all in his attitude. He also shares a lot about himself and his own experiences & difficulties of previous years. I wish you all the best in your path.

Adam

[Golfman]

Originally Posted by Mercedes1

I guess i feel guilty and it is coming out...guilt for the 2 sponsors not working out..still guilt I don't have one..guilt of want to move on but feeling stagnant.

Merc, some people I know in AA have gone through many sponsors and remain very happy and content today. I've also seen many who have lost a sponsor and automatically think it's their fault. I goes both ways. Some people are just not cut out to be sponsors. Those who still have major issues to contend with should not be sponsoring others (JMHO). If I don't have time for myself, how am I going to be of use to others. One question to ask yourself though..."Did any sponsor ask you to do something that you summarily dismissed because you feel you been through it already?" If so, maybe you could calmly explain how you went through it so the person would have a better understanding of you. I (not you) forget sometimes that in order for someone to help me, I have to help them as well. The old "help me help you" thing.

Originally Posted by Mercedes1

then to be positioned back at a step I do clearly feel I have worked through..I have been on steps 1-3 for 3months...clearly I am not dragging here but I also don't feel I need to stay here another 3months either.

Of course you don't want to be stagnant. If you truly feel in your heart that you are convinced that you are powerless over alcohol and your life is/was unmanageable, then step 1 is done. If you have worked steps 2 & 3 in your heart, then you are done. Keep in mind that step 3 is only a decision for some. If you believe it''s an action and you've taken that action then move on. Don't dwell on it and don't let anyone convince you otherwise. What we all have a tendency to do is to believe in our heads that we have worked a step. The longest journey I know is from the head to the heart. That is where the answers lie. If you have firm conviction in your heart, then you are ready to move on.

Originally Posted by Mercedes1

I think as long as you get you can't drink again..end of story. I get this..I wanted to drink a few times (do right now as a matter of fact) but realize it would be spiritual suicide and not what I need. I just want to get past the questions I have.

Good job. Having a craving during a stressful situation is natural for an alcoholic. Keep in mind that 92 days sober, although a great accomplishment, is for most people, still being in diapers in terms of AA. There are those who progress rapidly and those who don't. I would caution you not to get too anxious however. I suffered from the "I want what I want, when I want it, and I want it right now!!!" Many alcoholics forget the saying "Easy does it." Again, not referring to you specifically, but to some who just want the process "over with" as quickly as possible.

Originally Posted by Mercedes1

I guess I can add this to the list...anger of where I am at.

Boy, you're not alone there. Most in early sobriety are very angry about where they are. They want any pain, frustration, anxiety, and lonliness to go away ASAP. Many think that by just praying to God, these feelings will automatically disappear. They don't...remember on the bottom of page 83 of the Big Book and continuing on page 84. The description of the 12 Promises of AA. It says at the end the "they will always materialize, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly, if we work for them."

Please keep in mind that these promise appear during the process of working the 9th step. I have to confess that for me, they started appearing prior to that, but they were fleeting glimpses of thing yet to come rather than the rule in my life at that point. And...they come and go depending on the "maintenance of my spiritual condition."

Merc, keep in mind that this process is a journey, not a destination. I used to think "I just want to get done with these steps so I can go back to living normally." Well for me, steps 10, 11 , and 12 are maintnenance steps that I need to take every day.

I apologize in advane if I've made assumptions I shouldn't have. The bottom line for me is that I can "not drink" for a long time. The question is, how serene and happy is my life going to be?

Your friend in Sobriety,
Ed