The Program
Guest
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Southern New Hampshire
Posts: 746
The Program
Our literature makes clear what the program of recovery is:
"TO SHOW OTHER ALCOHOLICS PRECISELY HOW WE RECOVERED IS THE MAIN PURPOSE OF THIS BOOK" BB 4th ed. Forward To First Edition.
" CLEAR CUT DIRECTIONS SHOWING HOW WE RECOVERED" BB 4th ed. pg 29
The 12 steps are the program, which if worked with a sponsor, with the pre-requisite willingness and honesty, WILL lead to a psychic change-spiritual awakening sufficient enough to recover from alcoholism. This is the great fact, not an opinion. If I am not actively working the steps, I DO NOT HAVE A PROGRAM, I have a WONDERFUL FELLOWSHIP.
"TO SHOW OTHER ALCOHOLICS PRECISELY HOW WE RECOVERED IS THE MAIN PURPOSE OF THIS BOOK" BB 4th ed. Forward To First Edition.
" CLEAR CUT DIRECTIONS SHOWING HOW WE RECOVERED" BB 4th ed. pg 29
The 12 steps are the program, which if worked with a sponsor, with the pre-requisite willingness and honesty, WILL lead to a psychic change-spiritual awakening sufficient enough to recover from alcoholism. This is the great fact, not an opinion. If I am not actively working the steps, I DO NOT HAVE A PROGRAM, I have a WONDERFUL FELLOWSHIP.
'55 Classic
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Waco, TX
Posts: 637
Rob, I want to thank you for writing this thread. Lately I seem to have been missing all the positive things that people have to say or write about the AA program. Perhaps it’s because the negative things have a way of grabbing my attention and make me feel like responding and defending the program. I’ve had to stop myself from doing that because, first, the program needs no defense, and second, I feel that in my doing so it brings some type of legitimacy or affirmation to the person’s statement in that there is a problem with the AA program. The facts are these: the program has worked for millions of people around the world for many years. It still works today and it really isn’t necessary for it to change to meet the expectations of its detractors.
I am speaking for myself when I say this and when I offer up this suggestion to those who feel there are things in the Big Book or in any of the literature that needs to be changed. Why don’t you use the AA program to create your own 12 (or however many steps you want to do) Step Program? Alter it in any way you see fit and you can call it anything you want (except Alcoholics Anonymous). It’s been done before. But leave the program of AA alone because it works just fine the way it is and it doesn’t need to be fixed. (If I go around messing with the program and changing things to read however I think it should read, then what makes that any different than what I was doing to wind up in the program in the first place? After all, my best thinking got me in the shape that I was when I landed here…it took the AA program, as it is, to help fix me!)
So, once again, thank you from the bottom of my heart.
I am speaking for myself when I say this and when I offer up this suggestion to those who feel there are things in the Big Book or in any of the literature that needs to be changed. Why don’t you use the AA program to create your own 12 (or however many steps you want to do) Step Program? Alter it in any way you see fit and you can call it anything you want (except Alcoholics Anonymous). It’s been done before. But leave the program of AA alone because it works just fine the way it is and it doesn’t need to be fixed. (If I go around messing with the program and changing things to read however I think it should read, then what makes that any different than what I was doing to wind up in the program in the first place? After all, my best thinking got me in the shape that I was when I landed here…it took the AA program, as it is, to help fix me!)
So, once again, thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: London, England
Posts: 6
Thank you for clarifying the program of recovery. From where I am from Alcoholics Anonymous emits the message that the program entails consistently coming back and resolutely refusing to drink. I have attempted to illustrate to them that this may be their understanding, their tailored program, only the Big Book, which outlines the AA Program, comes into conflict with this particular creed:
'This is the baffling feature of alcoholism as we know it—this utter inability to leave it alone, no matter how great the necessity or the wish'
'Most alcoholics, for reasons most obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink'
'The alcoholic has at certain times no effective mental defence against the first drink'
These groups refuse to assume responsibility, offer sponsorship, and offer a viable alternative for anyone who has adhered to this creed and remains in anguish / can not get sober.
I reached a period in recovery where I could not continue and only then was I given clear cut direction, from a group that I had previously heard lambasted for being stringent and dictatorial. I established this was on account of their determination 'to show other alcoholics precisely how they recovered', recovered being the operative word.
This group was honest enough to convey to me that in order to recover from a ‘seemingly hopeless state’ of mind and body, at a bare minimum I would need to complete the Steps at a pace. This was so that I might experience a physic change, allowing me to begin to practice the principles outlined within the program throughout my affairs, which in turn would remove the obsession to drink, alongside the abhorrence I had of my existence.
Needless to say, as you stated, I encountered a spiritual awakening sufficient enough to recover from alcoholism. I solved my drinking problem. I solved my problems with life based on a simple reliance upon a Higher Power.
The content of this program is not disputable, only from witnessing those who have a minimal comprehension of the application of the Steps and / or candidly contest the Big Book advocating a program that they chose not to abide by and comprehend, I can grasp how the initial program you mentioned has been discarded.
'This is the baffling feature of alcoholism as we know it—this utter inability to leave it alone, no matter how great the necessity or the wish'
'Most alcoholics, for reasons most obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink'
'The alcoholic has at certain times no effective mental defence against the first drink'
These groups refuse to assume responsibility, offer sponsorship, and offer a viable alternative for anyone who has adhered to this creed and remains in anguish / can not get sober.
I reached a period in recovery where I could not continue and only then was I given clear cut direction, from a group that I had previously heard lambasted for being stringent and dictatorial. I established this was on account of their determination 'to show other alcoholics precisely how they recovered', recovered being the operative word.
This group was honest enough to convey to me that in order to recover from a ‘seemingly hopeless state’ of mind and body, at a bare minimum I would need to complete the Steps at a pace. This was so that I might experience a physic change, allowing me to begin to practice the principles outlined within the program throughout my affairs, which in turn would remove the obsession to drink, alongside the abhorrence I had of my existence.
Needless to say, as you stated, I encountered a spiritual awakening sufficient enough to recover from alcoholism. I solved my drinking problem. I solved my problems with life based on a simple reliance upon a Higher Power.
The content of this program is not disputable, only from witnessing those who have a minimal comprehension of the application of the Steps and / or candidly contest the Big Book advocating a program that they chose not to abide by and comprehend, I can grasp how the initial program you mentioned has been discarded.
Crusty Drunk
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 5
Originally Posted by Sheryl85
Lately I seem to have been missing all the positive things that people have to say or write about the AA program. Perhaps it’s because the negative things have a way of grabbing my attention and make me feel like responding and defending the program. I’ve had to stop myself from doing that because, first, the program needs no defense, and second, I feel that in my doing so it brings some type of legitimacy or affirmation to the person’s statement in that there is a problem with the AA program. The facts are these: the program has worked for millions of people around the world for many years. It still works today and it really isn’t necessary for it to change to meet the expectations of its detractors.
Part of the issue really is organized treatment and law enforcement pushing people into AA as a consequence for the results of their alcoholism. Those people come to meetings without wanting to be there. There is no attraction in that, it's coercion. AA can do nothing to change others referral behaviour but it does create an undercurrent of discontent in AA that is bothersome for those who are attracted to it. If those institutions could find a variety of things that arrest alcoholism and give folks a choice that may be more useful and take some heat off of AA.
Perhaps we should stop signing treatment and court slips? It demonstrates passive acceptance of their coercion.
Sorry, way off topic....
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Colorado Springs CO
Posts: 889
I try not to read negative opinions about AA, I don't like what it does to me. The self righteous state of mind I tend to get in is a little like drinking; fun at first, and then I feel lousy. I'm glad the courts do coerce people in, I don't care to contemplate the depths I might have sunk to before coming in (if I ever made it in at all) if they did not do so.
Crusty Drunk
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 5
Originally Posted by collinsmi
I'm glad the courts do coerce people in, I don't care to contemplate the depths I might have sunk to before coming in (if I ever made it in at all) if they did not do so.
'55 Classic
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Waco, TX
Posts: 637
BD
I don’t think you are off the topic. In fact I think you’ve hit very close to the mark.
“Our literature makes clear what the program of recovery is:
"TO SHOW OTHER ALCOHOLICS PRECISELY HOW WE RECOVERED IS THE MAIN PURPOSE OF THIS BOOK" BB 4th ed. Forward To First Edition.
" CLEAR CUT DIRECTIONS SHOWING HOW WE RECOVERED" BB 4th ed. pg 29
The 12 steps are the program, which if worked with a sponsor, with the pre-requisite willingness and honesty, WILL lead to a psychic change-spiritual awakening sufficient enough to recover from alcoholism. This is the great fact, not an opinion. If I am not actively working the steps, I DO NOT HAVE A PROGRAM, I have a WONDERFUL FELLOWSHIP.”
When you look at Rob’s entire statement, aren’t your observations included in that?
I have always been skeptical of the benefit that the legal system is doing for people by sending them to the program…but I do know several people who said that by this manner was it that they found AA. I feel that if one person is saved the horrors of an alcoholic death, then it’s worth a little discomfort on my part. I know you feel the same way. And I have found that it doesn’t matter if you do or don’t sign papers or if you sign them early on in the meeting so those folks who don’t want to be there can leave, or make wait until the meeting closes to give them in hopes that they get “it” by osmosis. I know of one group that seemed like their group conscience changed the policy on that every six months. It doesn’t matter because I’ve discovered what one of my friends with over 33 years told me is true… “If the person isn’t ready, nothing you can say will be right, but if the person IS ready, nothing you can say will be wrong.”
Emotions run high when the subject of AA is brought up, especially in a forum such as this. But you find it in meetings as well. What I try to do today is stay calm, cool, and collected so as to make myself be the best living example of the AA program I can be, because I may be the first contact that a person could have with the program or the only contact in some cases. (Being a “good” example seems to come naturally when I let my HP take the lead and get the heck out of His way!)
I love everyone’s response on the topic…
I don’t think you are off the topic. In fact I think you’ve hit very close to the mark.
“Our literature makes clear what the program of recovery is:
"TO SHOW OTHER ALCOHOLICS PRECISELY HOW WE RECOVERED IS THE MAIN PURPOSE OF THIS BOOK" BB 4th ed. Forward To First Edition.
" CLEAR CUT DIRECTIONS SHOWING HOW WE RECOVERED" BB 4th ed. pg 29
The 12 steps are the program, which if worked with a sponsor, with the pre-requisite willingness and honesty, WILL lead to a psychic change-spiritual awakening sufficient enough to recover from alcoholism. This is the great fact, not an opinion. If I am not actively working the steps, I DO NOT HAVE A PROGRAM, I have a WONDERFUL FELLOWSHIP.”
When you look at Rob’s entire statement, aren’t your observations included in that?
I have always been skeptical of the benefit that the legal system is doing for people by sending them to the program…but I do know several people who said that by this manner was it that they found AA. I feel that if one person is saved the horrors of an alcoholic death, then it’s worth a little discomfort on my part. I know you feel the same way. And I have found that it doesn’t matter if you do or don’t sign papers or if you sign them early on in the meeting so those folks who don’t want to be there can leave, or make wait until the meeting closes to give them in hopes that they get “it” by osmosis. I know of one group that seemed like their group conscience changed the policy on that every six months. It doesn’t matter because I’ve discovered what one of my friends with over 33 years told me is true… “If the person isn’t ready, nothing you can say will be right, but if the person IS ready, nothing you can say will be wrong.”
Emotions run high when the subject of AA is brought up, especially in a forum such as this. But you find it in meetings as well. What I try to do today is stay calm, cool, and collected so as to make myself be the best living example of the AA program I can be, because I may be the first contact that a person could have with the program or the only contact in some cases. (Being a “good” example seems to come naturally when I let my HP take the lead and get the heck out of His way!)
I love everyone’s response on the topic…
Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 49
Originally Posted by Rob B 
Our literature makes clear what the program of recovery is:
"TO SHOW OTHER ALCOHOLICS PRECISELY HOW WE RECOVERED IS THE MAIN PURPOSE OF THIS BOOK" BB 4th ed. Forward To First Edition.
" CLEAR CUT DIRECTIONS SHOWING HOW WE RECOVERED" BB 4th ed. pg 29
The 12 steps are the program, which if worked with a sponsor, with the pre-requisite willingness and honesty, WILL lead to a psychic change-spiritual awakening sufficient enough to recover from alcoholism. This is the great fact, not an opinion. If I am not actively working the steps, I DO NOT HAVE A PROGRAM, I have a WONDERFUL FELLOWSHIP.
"TO SHOW OTHER ALCOHOLICS PRECISELY HOW WE RECOVERED IS THE MAIN PURPOSE OF THIS BOOK" BB 4th ed. Forward To First Edition.
" CLEAR CUT DIRECTIONS SHOWING HOW WE RECOVERED" BB 4th ed. pg 29
The 12 steps are the program, which if worked with a sponsor, with the pre-requisite willingness and honesty, WILL lead to a psychic change-spiritual awakening sufficient enough to recover from alcoholism. This is the great fact, not an opinion. If I am not actively working the steps, I DO NOT HAVE A PROGRAM, I have a WONDERFUL FELLOWSHIP.
Thanks
Steve
problem with authority
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 870
Agreed that the program of recovery is outlined in the Book.
It has been my experience, however, that some of the people/groups who convey this message the loudest bring a lot of other garbage to the table (not found in the Big Book) that doesn't sit right with me.
I am not referring to anyone in particular, but I am thinking of the so-called "structured" groups that hurt themselves bending over backwards to set themselves apart with all manner of nanny-ish restrictions to the point where it becomes kabuki theater.
I realize this has little to do with the topic at hand, but then again a nitpicking group structure has little to do with the program of recovery (yet there they are, so often hand in hand), so I'm not going to sweat it.
M
It has been my experience, however, that some of the people/groups who convey this message the loudest bring a lot of other garbage to the table (not found in the Big Book) that doesn't sit right with me.
I am not referring to anyone in particular, but I am thinking of the so-called "structured" groups that hurt themselves bending over backwards to set themselves apart with all manner of nanny-ish restrictions to the point where it becomes kabuki theater.
I realize this has little to do with the topic at hand, but then again a nitpicking group structure has little to do with the program of recovery (yet there they are, so often hand in hand), so I'm not going to sweat it.
M
Last edited by FightingIrish; 06-05-2009 at 03:27 AM. Reason: ...
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 1,924
If you agree with the premise of the Book, then it is absolutely necessary to spread the message contained within. Many live on a hodge-podge of misinformation that has in many ways supplanted the planned program of recovery contained in the first 164 pages of the Big Book . While I have no power to change opinions, beliefs or other forms of clamor, I do have the ability to continue to practice the principles in my daily walk and remind others of what the Book says. Reaffirmation is powerful, yet for me, my actions will always speak volumes more than all of my pretty words.
If you believe the message Rob has shared concerning who and what we are then it is up to you to find the resolve to carry that same message regardless of those who would detour you from it; excuses are not relevant. I am not a crusader, I am a recovered person who believes that the information contained in this one Book, actually saves lives. Since the miracle has worked in me, it will work in others.
At some point we individually must stop giving the anti-groups ammo for their tirades. Rise above and teach the Book; why waste more time on defense. I did and it has been completely futile. Get to work on helping those who desire your help and move pass the ones who ridicule you and your beliefs.
Finally, there is no myth to recovery; I am recovered. If you are not working toward this goal then you are failing at recovery. Excuses are for the Drunk; get honest, get willing and get to work.
If you believe the message Rob has shared concerning who and what we are then it is up to you to find the resolve to carry that same message regardless of those who would detour you from it; excuses are not relevant. I am not a crusader, I am a recovered person who believes that the information contained in this one Book, actually saves lives. Since the miracle has worked in me, it will work in others.
At some point we individually must stop giving the anti-groups ammo for their tirades. Rise above and teach the Book; why waste more time on defense. I did and it has been completely futile. Get to work on helping those who desire your help and move pass the ones who ridicule you and your beliefs.
Finally, there is no myth to recovery; I am recovered. If you are not working toward this goal then you are failing at recovery. Excuses are for the Drunk; get honest, get willing and get to work.
problem with authority
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 870
Ruf,
Your reply may not have been in response to what I wrote, but I'm going to respond as if it were.
I am not offering an excuse. What need is there of an excuse? You either do the program or you don't. I have done the program. I carry the message, in my group, in outgoings to other groups, in detoxes and rehabilitation centers, and (soon) in the prison system. I do so because it was suggested in the program of recovery and because I want to.
As far as the information hodge-podge is concerned, I can't address that because all of my groups have Big Book and Step meetings where we ask participants to share on the readings or the step in question. We read How It Works at every meeting.
Are there people who cannot or will not do these things? Yes, the Book says so. The Book also tells me not to wring my hands over the person who doesn't want to recover this way. Alcohol is the best advocate for the program.
Although I carry the message for my own recovery, I do not have enough power to "make" someone do what I did, nor am I going to expend energy on histrionics about people who don't do the program.
My group carries the message, pure and simple, but we do not play God.
As far as playing defense, your point is well taken. For myself, I have had to sort out the difference between carrying the mess rather than the message. Believing that carrying a strong message of recovery is the same thing as nannying people to death is as much of a conflation fallacy as believing that people who say "keep coming back" are instructing people not to do the steps.
M
Your reply may not have been in response to what I wrote, but I'm going to respond as if it were.
I am not offering an excuse. What need is there of an excuse? You either do the program or you don't. I have done the program. I carry the message, in my group, in outgoings to other groups, in detoxes and rehabilitation centers, and (soon) in the prison system. I do so because it was suggested in the program of recovery and because I want to.
As far as the information hodge-podge is concerned, I can't address that because all of my groups have Big Book and Step meetings where we ask participants to share on the readings or the step in question. We read How It Works at every meeting.
Are there people who cannot or will not do these things? Yes, the Book says so. The Book also tells me not to wring my hands over the person who doesn't want to recover this way. Alcohol is the best advocate for the program.
Although I carry the message for my own recovery, I do not have enough power to "make" someone do what I did, nor am I going to expend energy on histrionics about people who don't do the program.
My group carries the message, pure and simple, but we do not play God.
As far as playing defense, your point is well taken. For myself, I have had to sort out the difference between carrying the mess rather than the message. Believing that carrying a strong message of recovery is the same thing as nannying people to death is as much of a conflation fallacy as believing that people who say "keep coming back" are instructing people not to do the steps.
M
Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 196
Originally Posted by Rob B
Our literature makes clear what the program of recovery is:
"TO SHOW OTHER ALCOHOLICS PRECISELY HOW WE RECOVERED IS THE MAIN PURPOSE OF THIS BOOK" BB 4th ed. Forward To First Edition.
" CLEAR CUT DIRECTIONS SHOWING HOW WE RECOVERED" BB 4th ed. pg 29
The 12 steps are the program, which if worked with a sponsor, with the pre-requisite willingness and honesty, WILL lead to a psychic change-spiritual awakening sufficient enough to recover from alcoholism. This is the great fact, not an opinion. If I am not actively working the steps, I DO NOT HAVE A PROGRAM, I have a WONDERFUL FELLOWSHIP.
"TO SHOW OTHER ALCOHOLICS PRECISELY HOW WE RECOVERED IS THE MAIN PURPOSE OF THIS BOOK" BB 4th ed. Forward To First Edition.
" CLEAR CUT DIRECTIONS SHOWING HOW WE RECOVERED" BB 4th ed. pg 29
The 12 steps are the program, which if worked with a sponsor, with the pre-requisite willingness and honesty, WILL lead to a psychic change-spiritual awakening sufficient enough to recover from alcoholism. This is the great fact, not an opinion. If I am not actively working the steps, I DO NOT HAVE A PROGRAM, I have a WONDERFUL FELLOWSHIP.
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 184
Originally Posted by Bleeding Deacon
Part of the issue really is organized treatment and law enforcement pushing people into AA as a consequence for the results of their alcoholism. Those people come to meetings without wanting to be there. There is no attraction in that, it's coercion. AA can do nothing to change others referral behaviour but it does create an undercurrent of discontent in AA that is bothersome for those who are attracted to it. If those institutions could find a variety of things that arrest alcoholism and give folks a choice that may be more useful and take some heat off of AA.
Perhaps we should stop signing treatment and court slips? It demonstrates passive acceptance of their coercion.
Sorry, way off topic....
Perhaps we should stop signing treatment and court slips? It demonstrates passive acceptance of their coercion.
Sorry, way off topic....
I would now like to see AA get away from courts and teatment center involvement. That may seem ungrateful of me, what I'm thinking is - how much stuff did I spout off those years of dryness that harmed other alcoholics, and AA itself? How much similar half-measure, watered down crap did I hear from like minded DWI hard drinkers that made me think, this is AA and these guys are alcoholics? (They're not...AA is full of hard drinkers who think they are alcoholic).
Here's a twist though...an old timer told me that AA approached courts with the proposition of letting drunken legal cases come to AA and get exposed, as incarceration did nothing to help alcoholics...
I do not know if this is true or not.
Does anyone have a confirmation yay or nay on this? I've always been curious.
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,861
I'm glad the courts do coerce people in, I don't care to contemplate the depths I might have sunk to before coming in (if I ever made it in at all) if they did not do so.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Didn't the 12 and 12 discuss the value of bringing the bottom to the alcoholic? That those who suffer early alcoholism might be spared a much worse fate?
I am mandated to attend AA. A much lower bottom awaits if I don't find sobriety. I am WILLING to work the program.
I am not directing my comments at anyone in particular, but there are some common themes that I hear in this 12 step section....
Hard drinkers are not "real" alcoholics. OK, I get that, I really do... but, the BB itself discusses these hard drinkers as possibly being either early in the course of alcoholism or potential alcoholics. If we are to embrace the spirit of the AA message... wouldn't it be a positive thing if the devastating effects of end stage alcoholism to the individual alcoholic (maybe at the hard drinker stage) and his family were averted through some type of intervention?
Would you have those that were potential alcoholics present some type of proof that they were not able to abstain from alcohol for a year before being allowed membership in AA?... think about it.
It seems to me that some feel that "high bottom" alcoholics (or maybe... just "hard drinkers") are ruining AA. That they should be excluded! Should they be shunned until they lose everything? Told to come back when they are a "real" alcoholic, living on the street, drinking out of a paper bag? Just forget Bill W's sentiment in the 12 and 12 about raising the bottom for some....
Who determines if an individual is an alcoholic?... the individual. What is the only requirement for membership in AA?... a desire to quit drinking.
Maybe the First Step and Third Tradition need a re-write.
I guess I am in a pissy mood...
Yea there are people in AA because of court order... But there are plenty who find themselves in AA because of a court order who become shining examples of the program... I can readily think of a half dozen at my home group who have years of sobriety and serve as role models to me, and started because they were mandated.... I can ignore those who don't have what I want.
Well... I have been trying to find a way to get this off my chest. I don't know, I guess I have a really great home group, because these issues are just not a problem. We have a very 12 step, spiritually oriented group. Maybe I ought to just quit this forum and only go to the face to face meetings... I'm serious, sometimes I get so bummed out and confused.
Mark
I am mandated to attend AA. A much lower bottom awaits if I don't find sobriety. I am WILLING to work the program.
I am not directing my comments at anyone in particular, but there are some common themes that I hear in this 12 step section....
Hard drinkers are not "real" alcoholics. OK, I get that, I really do... but, the BB itself discusses these hard drinkers as possibly being either early in the course of alcoholism or potential alcoholics. If we are to embrace the spirit of the AA message... wouldn't it be a positive thing if the devastating effects of end stage alcoholism to the individual alcoholic (maybe at the hard drinker stage) and his family were averted through some type of intervention?
Would you have those that were potential alcoholics present some type of proof that they were not able to abstain from alcohol for a year before being allowed membership in AA?... think about it.
It seems to me that some feel that "high bottom" alcoholics (or maybe... just "hard drinkers") are ruining AA. That they should be excluded! Should they be shunned until they lose everything? Told to come back when they are a "real" alcoholic, living on the street, drinking out of a paper bag? Just forget Bill W's sentiment in the 12 and 12 about raising the bottom for some....
Who determines if an individual is an alcoholic?... the individual. What is the only requirement for membership in AA?... a desire to quit drinking.
Maybe the First Step and Third Tradition need a re-write.
I guess I am in a pissy mood...
Yea there are people in AA because of court order... But there are plenty who find themselves in AA because of a court order who become shining examples of the program... I can readily think of a half dozen at my home group who have years of sobriety and serve as role models to me, and started because they were mandated.... I can ignore those who don't have what I want.
Well... I have been trying to find a way to get this off my chest. I don't know, I guess I have a really great home group, because these issues are just not a problem. We have a very 12 step, spiritually oriented group. Maybe I ought to just quit this forum and only go to the face to face meetings... I'm serious, sometimes I get so bummed out and confused.
Mark
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
"Hard drinkers are not "real" alcoholics. OK, I get that, I really do... but, the BB itself discusses these hard drinkers as possibly being either early in the course of alcoholism or potential alcoholics. If we are to embrace the spirit of the AA message... wouldn't it be a positive thing if the devastating effects of end stage alcoholism to the individual alcoholic (maybe at the hard drinker stage) and his family were averted through some type of intervention?"
"To Wives" describes four types of drinkers. The first one is most likely a hard drinker. I don't mess with them.The second one is definitely showing signs of alcoholism, but is a long way from admitting it. I don't mess with those types either nor am I interested in raising their bottom or spending much time trying to persuade them. Our good friend Mr. Whiskey will do a far better job than I ever could. I've had a few of those ask me to work with them and I always ask them why they are asking me. Invariably it is because their P.O. or counselor mandates that they get a sponsor. I won't work with anyone on that basis.
Type three is getting there. I'll work with them. Interestingly enough Type four, whom everyone has given up on has the best chance of recovery. Type One or Type Type Two work won't get it for a Type Four guy.
"To Wives" describes four types of drinkers. The first one is most likely a hard drinker. I don't mess with them.The second one is definitely showing signs of alcoholism, but is a long way from admitting it. I don't mess with those types either nor am I interested in raising their bottom or spending much time trying to persuade them. Our good friend Mr. Whiskey will do a far better job than I ever could. I've had a few of those ask me to work with them and I always ask them why they are asking me. Invariably it is because their P.O. or counselor mandates that they get a sponsor. I won't work with anyone on that basis.
Type three is getting there. I'll work with them. Interestingly enough Type four, whom everyone has given up on has the best chance of recovery. Type One or Type Type Two work won't get it for a Type Four guy.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
The second one is definitely showing signs of alcoholism, but is a long way from admitting it.
Hey, I get that a type four guy won't want to work with a type two guy... But declining to work with someone who who is mandated, simply because they are mandated, is, IMHO, arrogant... However, no one in AA should be responsible for raising someone's bottom nor should they have to persuade them... attraction, not promotion.... It won't work.
So... do you have someone in your home group that will work with a type two guy, assuming the type two guy is willing, and truly interested in working the program... or do you just tell him to come back after he has lost everything? Then will he be worth your time??????
Mark
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
I was admitting I was an alcoholic to the people I needed to get off my back a long time before I conceded it to my innermost self. Big difference in sitting in a roomful of people saying I'm an alcoholic and in it sinking from my head to my heart.
Why would I work with someone who just wants to tell his P.O. that he has a sponsor? That's why I ask them that right off the bat. And I'll be honest. I don't have the time to mess with anyone that's not serious.
I'm not going to get into it with you over this Mark. Evidently you've hit the bottom you needed to hit. That looks different for everyone. But I think it feels the same for everyone too. Bottom isn't about losing your job or your house. It's in inside job, just like recovery is an inside job.
How I do my Twelfth-Step work is my business. You do yours the way you see fit. Meanwhile, if you have a problem with how I do mine, put my name on column one, why it bothers you on column two, and so forth. I don't have a problem.
Jim
Why would I work with someone who just wants to tell his P.O. that he has a sponsor? That's why I ask them that right off the bat. And I'll be honest. I don't have the time to mess with anyone that's not serious.
I'm not going to get into it with you over this Mark. Evidently you've hit the bottom you needed to hit. That looks different for everyone. But I think it feels the same for everyone too. Bottom isn't about losing your job or your house. It's in inside job, just like recovery is an inside job.
How I do my Twelfth-Step work is my business. You do yours the way you see fit. Meanwhile, if you have a problem with how I do mine, put my name on column one, why it bothers you on column two, and so forth. I don't have a problem.
Jim
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
