This is why I'm here

[StellaBlu]

I don't know where to begin.

My grandfather was an alcoholic. He drank Jack Daniels even after he was diagnosed with diabetes and emphysema and was buried with a bottle in his casket (his wishes). My father suffered physical abuse from him and then married my mother - a codependent/enabler turned alcoholic.

Although I cannot remember my father excessively drunk very many times in my life, he was mean and violent as well as condescending and belittling to me. My mother pretended and still pretends that she didn't know about the abuse that my older sister and I suffered from him.

My therapists have labelled my mother an addict. But my mother will be sure to quote from a website which defines an alcoholic as someone who drinks some specified daily amount of alcohol with which she is below (other drugs notwithstanding and this doesn't include her drug dealing boyfriend either).

Like the other members of this forum there were defined roles in my family. My role was the scapegoat. It has been difficult. I think that my sisters are in denial about the level of dysfunction and abuse that existed and exists in our family. This denial extends to my aunts, uncles, cousins and surviving grandparents.

Throughout my life I have often felt alone, confused and frustrated. I've spent untold hours rehashing events and conversations in my mind while trying to figure out how to communicate things to family members. Because as a scapegoat EVERYTHING you do or say or don't do or don't say can be used against you.

This is a long post. Thanks for reading this.

[reverse]

I appreciate you sharing your experience. Your situation is similar to mine in that everyone...siblings and extended family members are in denial. Scapegoat and the lost child have been familiar roles to me. The only time I have been the hero was during the rare times I went along with what everyone wanted me to do and believe--which meant ignoring the problems/abuse/elephants.

I will have to try to find that article you mentioned at a later time when I have a moment. It is difficult to cut ties w/ biological family members b/c they are the ones who have known us from day one and they also are the ones who are supposed to love and respect us. However, not all of us are that lucky to have reliable and trustworthy families. .... Take care and be good to yourself. Thanks again!
-Amanda

[dothi]

Hi StellaBlu, welcome to our corner of SR and thanks for sharing your story They really reassure me about the patterns alcoholic families follow (and makes me feel less guilty about the decisions I've made with my own family of origin, when those doubts come creeping up).

I played the Hero in my family, and my sister played the Scapegoat. Out of the three children, I believe my sister always had the most clarity as to how dysfunctional we were. That's probably what distinguished her scapegoat - although she couldn't articulate it as a child, she was constantly prodding and calling attention to the faultlines in our family system. So what better way to deal with a child who isn't helping the system work (whose prodding ultimately threatens the supply of alcohol) than to make them out to be completely wrong/stupid/unworthy/ungrateful/etc.

I was in denial for many years longer than my sister, and I see now how much more damaged I am in some ways because being the family Hero lulled me into accepting the alcoholic rules for much longer. There's a "reward" for being Hero - it's the promise that if you play Hero well enough, that you can "fix" your family and finally be happy. My sister never bought into any of that - she saw the dysfunction and wanted out.

I used to re-hash too - thinking of how to say things just right to get everyone to see how to better themselves. What helped me accept that I don't need to do that anymore was to realize for the alcoholics in my family is that they think this lifestyle is normal. My alcoholic father thinks it's perfectly normal to keep women at home, deprive them of socialization and hobbies, guilt them for wanting things for themselves (because they're at home and not bringing in the dough, right? so how are they contributing?). When I look at his family history, his father was like that, and his grandfather was probably like that. So it's partly a learned family system. That doesn't dismiss anything, but it helped me realize that I'm not going to change the alcoholic in my family because he believes there's nothing wrong with what he's doing.

This forum is a rare treat for people like us because in the midst of the isolation, many of us are finding that we are finally not alone in what we are going through. The lessons we can't put into words can still be shared through our stories.

[StellaBlu]

Dothi & Amanda,
Thank you for your comments. It is comforting to know that others are further along in dealing with these issues that I am still struggling with. I appreciate your sharing. Also, my family does not validate my feelings so it's nice to be able to get validation from your comments. It reassures me that I am not alone.

Here is a little bit more about my situation: I have cut off ties with my father well more than 15 years ago. I have never regretted this decision. For me it was a no-brainer. He truly is one of the most self absorbed people that I have ever met in my life. From my perspective, he and I had never really bonded even when I was a kid. When I was 8 he told me that I was the reason why my older sister ran away (she was 10) after he had sexually abused her. I apologize if this is too much information but I don't know how else to say it. In that same conversation he told me that I was a bad kid and that I had no friends. I have what feels like hundreds more stories of him just like this one - like the time when I was 13 and he told me that I was a 'rotten kid and didn't deserve a birthday present'. Or the time he broke the laundry table when he threw me onto it because I hadn't washed his clothes. I could go on and on but I think you get it. He is/was bad news.

When I first cut ties with him, my mother (who is divorced from him because of his cheating and the fact that he left her for another woman) and my sisters (even the one who was sexually abused by him) rallied on his behalf and applied pressure on me to reconcile with him. I refused. I held my ground. My decision to cut ties with him was not that difficult, in retrospect, compared to the amazement and pain I had seeing my sisters and mother still under his control and domination. Now, in the last couple of years and more than 15 years after I cut off ties with him, my older sister no longer speaks to him nor does her daughter (my neice) and my mother has apparently expressed to my neice that she thinks he is 'atrocious'.

To be clear: My father is a closed chapter in my life. He does not bring me anxiety and I have no emotion when I rarely think about him. I don't want to see my father suffer at all. I just don't want to be subjected to him. I don't want him to be a part of my life and I don't want to be a part of his life.

So that's the situation with my father.

My mother and sisters are another story. They are a whole other source of frustration and confusion for me. And it is with them that I'm considering cutting off ties (again) with as well and it is not as straightforward as it was with my father.

To describe my mother I could pick any number of things that Amanda has already written about her own mother. My mother is a peice of work. In a nutshell she is just not much of a mother. She let my father do and say things to me and my older sister that he should not have been able to get away with doing. And she herself has said some really mean things to me over the years. But I think the biggest disappointment that I have regarding my mother is her blatant abandonment of me (as well as my older sister) when things got/get difficult. Shortly after I cut ties with my father, I found myself in a very challenging and stressful and life changing situation. My mother and I had different points of view as to how to resolve the issue and when I didn't do what she suggested she proceeded to put me down and condescend to me. The line I remember the most was: "You know, you're not going to get what you want". As if she would know. I told her that if she couldn't refrain from bringing up the issue that she should not call me. So she stopped calling me. And as a result my sisters stopped calling me (I lived and still live in another state from them). My younger sister will refer to that time period as when "sb took a break from the family". I guess that was sort of true but then it allows them to not take responsibility for that fact that they didn't call me either. Were they taking a break from me as well??

Moving on. A few years later, I did 'reconcile' with them. But it was rough. I remember the first time I saw my mother after many years. She came to visit me in California. I remember driving my car down beautiful Big Sur having a raging argument with my mother. I asked her why she let my father abuse my older sister in the way that he did. Her response: "Well if it doesn't bother M(mysister) then why should it bother you?". This was when they all still had a relationship with him.

Is it just me or is that incredibly dysfunctional?

I wasn't trying to do my sister's bidding for her but she is my sister and I do care about what happens and has happened to her.

I don't know how I managed to get beyond that conversation with my mother but I did. But after the most recent situation that I've had with her I am rethinking my approach to my relationship with her. Last January my live-in boyfriend found himself in an unfortunate situation which he admits that he had partially caused. My mother happened to have called me two months after it happened. She loves my boyfriend (probably more than she does me) and she was in shock. After a few more comments to me I said to her "you know he could have done XYZ to prevent this". She then said to me in the most judging and snappish (is that a word?) tone possible: "You didn't say that to him did you?" I was livid. I wrapped up the conversation quickly and decided not to ever call her again.

After all the work I had done to try to make my relationship with her better/good she hurts me by snapping at me with that judgmental comment. This is a woman who basically stood by and watched her children be abused by her husband. And she is judging me?? Where does she get the right?

NINE months later she called me (last week) not to apologize for snapping at me but to wish me a happy birthday and to pretend that nothing out of the ordinary has happened.

This is a long post and it feels good to get this off my chest. Thank you for being here. I appreciate you reading this. And I appreciate all of your previous insights and comments. It really is very helpful.

sb

[dothi]

Originally Posted by StellaBlu

When I first cut ties with him, my mother (who is divorced from him because of his cheating and the fact that he left her for another woman) and my sisters (even the one who was sexually abused by him) rallied on his behalf and applied pressure on me to reconcile with him.

There's this poorly conceived idea out there that we should value our family ties above all else, even if abuse is involved. Stella, I think you were probably a fairly sensitive and perceptive child. You knew this wasn't right. You listened to your gut that told you keeping in contact with a child molester was not smart.

Your mom and sisters were not ready to face the reality of what kind of person he is. They probably wanted "to leave the past in the past" (a tagline I've heard in my family a lot). You cutting off contact acknowledged that not only was there something bad in the past, but that it was also still unresolved.

Re: abused sister. She probably didn't want to feel responsible for creating a family rift. How much do you want to bet she was hearing things like, "he didn't do anything to Stella - what happened is none of her business."

Sexual abuse had its place in my family too. IME because children are growing up in an environment where they are already forced to parent their parents, when abuse like this happens and their only source of stability (a suffering family) threatens to fall apart, they continue to carry that responsibility of keeping the family together - even at the cost of being abused. Because they are growing up in a dysfunctional home, they do not get to learn that it's the abuser who is responsible - not the victim. That's too bad about your sister, because it sounds to me that growing up in an abusive home has left her believing that any kind of abuse is ultimately okay if mom/dad does it. Your parents aren't really responsible, right?

Originally Posted by StellaBlu

I don't want to see my father suffer at all. I just don't want to be subjected to him. I don't want him to be a part of my life and I don't want to be a part of his life.

Hear hear! I feel the same way. I wish my family could understand that too.

Originally Posted by StellaBlu

My younger sister will refer to that time period as when "sb took a break from the family". I guess that was sort of true but then it allows them to not take responsibility for that fact that they didn't call me either. Were they taking a break from me as well??

I would say so. What do you do with a child who is demanding to have her very real human need for respect/acknowledge/support when you were used to her being small/powerless/ultimately unimportant? It sounds to me like your mom ran out of manipulative ideas to keep the system working - the one where her opinion is the only important one.

Originally Posted by StellaBlu

Her response: "Well if it doesn't bother M(mysister) then why should it bother you?"

How much you really want to bet that it doesn't bother your sister? How likely is it that your sister still believes that the family falling apart will be her fault for being the victim? Sexual abuse is a terrible thing. Your sister may feel guilt that she was "so seductive" to your dad, and your dad being so "weak" in character, that what else should she have expected to happen? If you are already being raised in a home with unstable parents, then you convince yourself that you should have known better than to exist in the innocence that is childhood.

My sister and I were both sexually abused by a family member on my AF's side. I (Hero) took on the responsibility of parenting my AF, became a rock in the family, and "moved forward." I thought I was doing a good job. My sister OTOH struggled, and she heard that exact same line over and over again. When I got older and wanted counselling, it was "hush hush" and "I thought you had dealt with it". "Past is in the past, so why bring it up now?"

Originally Posted by StellaBlu

Last January my live-in boyfriend found himself in an unfortunate situation which he admits that he had partially caused. My mother happened to have called me two months after it happened. She loves my boyfriend (probably more than she does me) and she was in shock. After a few more comments to me I said to her "you know he could have done XYZ to prevent this". She then said to me in the most judging and snappish (is that a word?) tone possible: "You didn't say that to him did you?" I was livid. I wrapped up the conversation quickly and decided not to ever call her again.

To be honest, Stella, it sounds like your mom grew up in an environment where men could do no wrong. That's why she didn't draw boundaries with your dad to protect your kids. That's why she can't even acknowledge that your boyfriend - man or not - is human too and will make mistakes. Your mom may have grown up with the belief system that men are inherently in the right, and women inherently in the wrong.

This is not an uncommon belief system. I know my AF's family of origin was very much like this. You don't spend money on women. You don't invest in women. They don't amount to anything. They are burdens - not blessings.

Originally Posted by StellaBlu

NINE months later she called me (last week) not to apologize for snapping at me but to wish me a happy birthday and to pretend that nothing out of the ordinary has happened.

Because she believes this treatment of people is normal. That if she hounds you enough, eventually you'll accept the status quo and fall in line. She believes she fulfilled her role of mother by putting you in your place. So why should she feel bad about it?

It's terrible the kinds of things we can grow up to believe are normal. But what are you supposed to do about it? How are you supposed to know better? I believe that the isolating nature of dysfunctional families is what makes the negative impacts so strong on us. You aren't educated with healthy alternatives - you are just given the same incomplete lessons again and again with a sledgehammer.

FWIW I think you are doing really well in facing such a heavy family history.

[StellaBlu]

Dothi, Thank you. I appreciate your gems of wisdom.

Originally Posted by dothi

Re: abused sister. She probably didn't want to feel responsible for creating a family rift. How much do you want to bet she was hearing things like, "he didn't do anything to Stella - what happened is none of her business."

It never occurred to me that this is what might have been going on. But now that you mention this it makes sense.

Originally Posted by dothi

How much you really want to bet that it doesn't bother your sister? How likely is it that your sister still believes that the family falling apart will be her fault for being the victim? Sexual abuse is a terrible thing.

You are right. The sexual abuse has really affected my sister greatly. She ran away from home at 15, lived on the streets, became a drug addict. She was MIA from ages 15 to 19. She has now been clean for over 23 years. I'm proud of her for that. I've often talked to her about getting into therapy. Initially she played the tough girl telling me that she had dealt with all her issues with my father etc.. But in the last few conversations I've had with her when I brought up therapy she got really choked up and said that she would go but she's scared (as anyone can imagine). I think she is afraid of the depths of the pain that she would have to confront/relive and the intensity of the anger. My sister has been through a lot. As difficult as it is to have a sisterly relationship with her I have so much compassion for her because I know what she's been through.

Originally Posted by dothi

My sister and I were both sexually abused by a family member on my AF's side. I (Hero) took on the responsibility of parenting my AF, became a rock in the family, and "moved forward." I thought I was doing a good job. My sister OTOH struggled, and she heard that exact same line over and over again. When I got older and wanted counselling, it was "hush hush" and "I thought you had dealt with it". "Past is in the past, so why bring it up now?"

I'm sorry that this happened.

Originally Posted by dothi

To be honest, Stella, it sounds like your mom grew up in an environment where men could do no wrong. That's why she didn't draw boundaries with your dad to protect your kids. That's why she can't even acknowledge that your boyfriend - man or not - is human too and will make mistakes. Your mom may have grown up with the belief system that men are inherently in the right, and women inherently in the wrong.

This is not an uncommon belief system. I know my AF's family of origin was very much like this. You don't spend money on women. You don't invest in women. They don't amount to anything. They are burdens - not blessings.

Yes I think you are right about her. It's good for me to hear this reaffirmed by an outside source because I've always suspected this about her.

Originally Posted by dothi

Because she believes this treatment of people is normal. That if she hounds you enough, eventually you'll accept the status quo and fall in line. She believes she fulfilled her role of mother by putting you in your place. So why should she feel bad about it? .

You are so right about her.

Originally Posted by dothi

It's terrible the kinds of things we can grow up to believe are normal. But what are you supposed to do about it? How are you supposed to know better? I believe that the isolating nature of dysfunctional families is what makes the negative impacts so strong on us. You aren't educated with healthy alternatives - you are just given the same incomplete lessons again and again with a sledgehammer.

Dothi, when I read that last line I laughed. I just remember when I was a kid living at home. Every so often I would relate some messed up story about my family to someone at school or a casual family friend as a way to process it. Once they got beyond the shock of the story they would sometimes offer up some insight or 'words of wisdom' to me. Sometimes I would actually feel enlightened by what they said. And I would march home with hope that I finally had *the* tool that would enable me to deal with my parents...only to be hit over the head by parents with this proverbial sledgehammer over and over again. My parents clearly did not want to be enlightened with what I had learned.

Originally Posted by dothi

FWIW I think you are doing really well in facing such a heavy family history.

Thank you for that. It's been a long and very difficult journey. I appreciate your help.

[tromboneliness]

Originally Posted by dothi

[COLOR="DarkRed"]There's this poorly conceived idea out there that we should value our family ties above all else...

Ya, the old "blood is thicker than water" line of BS. (Whatever that phrase is supposed to mean anyway... )

I have made it clear that my wife (who I chose) comes first, ahead of my family (with whom I associate because I had the misfortune to be born into it). She's in recovery, they're not (for the most part), so she gets my loyalty.

The conventional thinking has it backwards -- you have every right to have your "family of choice" come first, with the "family that you happen to share some DNA with" a distant second. If they don't get it, they don't get it -- that's their problem....

T

[grewupinabarn]

Originally Posted by dothi

"Past is in the past, so why bring it up now?"

Many many times I heard my AF and AM say 'its water over the dam' and 'just put it behind you'. And bringing up the difficult events from the past and mistakes was always judged as a deep character flaw. In fact, I now know that I was violating the rules that maintained the dysfunction.

I was a lost child also, occasionally allowed out of the corner to be a hero. I attended my AF's alma mater, and boy was he thrilled. And then I nearly flunked out.

FWIW, I have learned that you can put difficult experiences behind you when you have learned the lesson of that experience. If you burn your hand on a stove do you just 'put it behind you'? You learn to not touch the #@%& stove! Dysfunctional rules say I must forget the lesson as well as the experience itself. Sorry, there is no such 'delete' button on the human brain. And some of those lessons show us how to make proper boundaries, work on our own sanity, and to not enable insanity of others.

Originally Posted by dothi

"I thought you dealt with it"

I think the correct response is 'Yeah, I that is why I am not visiting/ending this discussion/taking care of myself'.

[GingerM]

But in the last few conversations I've had with her when I brought up therapy she got really choked up and said that she would go but she's scared (as anyone can imagine). I think she is afraid of the depths of the pain that she would have to confront/relive and the intensity of the anger. My sister has been through a lot. As difficult as it is to have a sisterly relationship with her I have so much compassion for her because I know what she's been through.

Couple of quick thoughts about this bit (sorry, I think Dothi covered most of the other points):

1. The more you tell your sister that therapy works and is a viable alternative, the more "normalized" therapy will seem, and the (slightly) less scary.

2. Therapy for a sexual assault victim (especially when the assualt happened as a child) is much more frightening than if it was "just" plain old abuse. Sexual assault victims frequently have what are called instrusive images - in other words, the relive the scenario(s) and they can't get the pictures out of their mind. So going into therapy is asking to have their lives taken over by this video that won't leave, that won't let them sleep, that won't let them think.

I am one of those victims. To this day, I can not look at a picture of Jimi Hendrix without intrusive images having nothing to do with the musician. It's been nearly 40 years, and my assault was a single incident.

You can tell your sister that if she seeks a competent therapist, they have tools to make those images go away. There are ways one can manipulate memories such that they carry no emotional weight anymore (by "one" I mean the victim - the therapist just tells the victim how to do it - so it's optional. I will say that it's worked incredibly well for me)

3. Our psyche's will not allow us to experience more pain than we can cope with. Look at this board - look at all the weird mental gyrations we all went through to protect ourselves from pain that would have crushed us. But our minds protected us. If your sister was to enter therapy, first, the therapist wouldn't move forward any faster than your sister was ready for - and if, by accident, it did happen, her psyche would protect her. She went through hell and survived it - she can survive therapy, which is much less horrible, and has the added nicety of making her happier in the end than dragging the weight of this around with her has done.

4. She will have to deal with the anger - but I think "confront" may be a bit of a strong word. Confronting sounds antagonistic. It isn't so much confronting as it is accepting - accepting that something horrible happened, accepting that she had no control over it, accepting that she didn't want it to happen, but it did anyway.

I do hope your sister seeks therapy, and I hope you do as well. I think everyone could use a little help in this chaotic world of ours (not just ACoAs - *everyone*).

[reverse]

Originally Posted by StellaBlu

To be clear: My father is a closed chapter in my life. He does not bring me anxiety and I have no emotion when I rarely think about him. I don't want to see my father suffer at all. I just don't want to be subjected to him. I don't want him to be a part of my life and I don't want to be a part of his life.

This is also how I feel about various family members. My mother (I'm letting go of more and more each day b/c I'm finally realizing how toxic it was for me to keep trying to hold onto her. This has made me face myself and my insecurities and intimacy issues.), my sister (which I haven't really talked about her a whole lot, but I was devastated when ties were severed with her a year ago--esp. considering we live in the same town-2 mi. apart), my step-father, and my biological father. This also includes extended relatives who minimize the severity of the issue and continue to demoralize my integrity and character simply b/c they don't ever want to face the fact and consider how I feel.

My mother and sisters are another story. They are a whole other source of frustration and confusion for me. And it is with them that I'm considering cutting off ties (again) with as well and it is not as straightforward as it was with my father.

Since 2003, last month would be the 4th time I went for a long period w/ no communication w/ my mother by choice. Now, I believe it is going to be permanent (unless I can somehow seperate myself mentally and emotionally enough to just keep it to casual emails--but I truly don't even think she deserves that much given the fact that she has made no remission or repentance for her actions/negligence/irresponibilities). My sister (only sibling who is 5 yrs older) I have made the choice to refrain from communicating with her for the 2nd or 3rd time now (starting from sept. of last year). My biological father is the 2nd time and my step-father is the 2nd time. I honestly think I'm much saner as a result of doing so.

To describe my mother I could pick any number of things that Amanda has already written about her own mother.

I didn't realize you have been reading my posts.

I told her that if she couldn't refrain from bringing up the issue that she should not call me. So she stopped calling me. And as a result my sisters stopped calling me (I lived and still live in another state from them). My younger sister will refer to that time period as when "sb took a break from the family". I guess that was sort of true but then it allows them to not take responsibility for that fact that they didn't call me either. Were they taking a break from me as well??

Back in 2003 (I was 20 years old), when I first moved to WA with who is now my husband, I refrained from communicating w/ my mother and sister. I would not talk to them on the phone--however I would email them--even though their emails were nasty. Neither one of them were happy that I moved across the country without talking to them about it. I had spoken with my mother briefly about the fact that I was going to do so and I told her I would try to visit her once before I left. However, I refused to visit her given the fact that she always took me for granted whenever I did, plus I'd have to drive 6 hours one way just to see her, spend gas money I didn't have, worry about being around my step-dad, deal w/ her being drunk and then too hung over the next day to spend time with me, and the fact that I was in the middle of finishing up my semester in college. Instead of visiting my mother during spring break, I chose to go to WA to visit my hubby's mother for the first time just to make sure I would want to move to WA with him. My sister and my mother were livid and sooo hurt. I had tried everything I could to reconcile with them before I moved, but they just kept getting more and more out of control--screaming and the whole works. So I said, forget you. I'm doing something for myself for the first time in my life...and I needed help, so my husband helped me find supportive people and get me into counseling when I needed it. My family of origin wanted nothing of that....they just wanted me all to themselves without contributing anything good to my life. Also, as a result of doing so, my mother and sister went around to the family spreading their rhetoric and lies about me and my husband---even going as far as saying that my husband (back then b/f) had me chained up in his basement! LOL My biological father called me on the telephone at 1am in the morning (WA time--3am WI time) and told me that he was going to call the cops if he hadn't heard my voice on the phone and that my mother told him my husband had me chained in the basement. This is a father who never was involved in my life but on rare occasions and knew about the abuse my sister and I were going through w/ my step-dad but didn't care to do anything to help. I told him...go ahead and call the cops. I'm well over 18 and there is nothing you can do about it. Needless to say, that was when I offically cut my father off for the first time. I guess my original point was that my mom and sister starting spreading BS to the family--telling them I don't care about them and I abandoned the family. B4 I moved to WA...i would write relatives letters of updates and even try to call some of them and I would get NO response. So why would I want to stick around? All of a sudden I move to WA and its a big deal and I don't care about the family. I was like...I was being abused by my step dad until the age of 20 and no one cared about me and even minimalized it--so why should i give a @*()*@# about what they thought about me? Not only that, but no one ever tried contacting via telephone or email during the 5 years that I lived in WA, but yet, I'm still the heartless and cold one, right? LOL

Moving on. A few years later, I did 'reconcile' with them. But it was rough. I remember the first time I saw my mother after many years. She came to visit me in California. I remember driving my car down beautiful Big Sur having a raging argument with my mother. I asked her why she let my father abuse my older sister in the way that he did. Her response: "Well if it doesn't bother M(mysister) then why should it bother you?". This was when they all still had a relationship with him.

Is it just me or is that incredibly dysfunctional?

Sounds like she just wanted you to be compliant and shut your mouth like your sister did. Her attitude was...if I can convince one daughter to take responsibility for it or act like it never happened, who in the hell does my other daughter think she is for even having a problem w/ it when it never happened to her? My take on that is apparently she didn't like the fact that you were harder to manipulate--especially when it didn't happen to you. It is good that you do care b/c witnessing and knowing about the sexual abuse did involve you. It involves everyone who cares about your sister and no one would wish that on their worst enemy! It's horrible--so for you mother to minimilize that issue and expecting you to not be concerned about your sister is very disgusting, maddening, heartless, and condescending. That's just my opinion.

Anyways, thx for sharing sb. Keep us updated and I am most likely to do likewise. Hang in there and one thing I always try to remember in relationships is: "do they have my best interests at heart?" b/c if not--they aren't worth my time and the relationship will only drag me down and make me regress-not progress.

[StellaBlu]

Originally Posted by GingerM

Couple of quick thoughts about this bit (sorry, I think Dothi covered most of the other points):

1. The more you tell your sister that therapy works and is a viable alternative, the more "normalized" therapy will seem, and the (slightly) less scary.

2. Therapy for a sexual assault victim (especially when the assualt happened as a child) is much more frightening than if it was "just" plain old abuse. Sexual assault victims frequently have what are called instrusive images - in other words, the relive the scenario(s) and they can't get the pictures out of their mind. So going into therapy is asking to have their lives taken over by this video that won't leave, that won't let them sleep, that won't let them think.

I am one of those victims. To this day, I can not look at a picture of Jimi Hendrix without intrusive images having nothing to do with the musician. It's been nearly 40 years, and my assault was a single incident.

You can tell your sister that if she seeks a competent therapist, they have tools to make those images go away. There are ways one can manipulate memories such that they carry no emotional weight anymore (by "one" I mean the victim - the therapist just tells the victim how to do it - so it's optional. I will say that it's worked incredibly well for me)

3. Our psyche's will not allow us to experience more pain than we can cope with. Look at this board - look at all the weird mental gyrations we all went through to protect ourselves from pain that would have crushed us. But our minds protected us. If your sister was to enter therapy, first, the therapist wouldn't move forward any faster than your sister was ready for - and if, by accident, it did happen, her psyche would protect her. She went through hell and survived it - she can survive therapy, which is much less horrible, and has the added nicety of making her happier in the end than dragging the weight of this around with her has done.

4. She will have to deal with the anger - but I think "confront" may be a bit of a strong word. Confronting sounds antagonistic. It isn't so much confronting as it is accepting - accepting that something horrible happened, accepting that she had no control over it, accepting that she didn't want it to happen, but it did anyway.

I do hope your sister seeks therapy, and I hope you do as well. I think everyone could use a little help in this chaotic world of ours (not just ACoAs - *everyone*).

Ginger - Thank you for this helpful information. Yes I have been in therapy most of my life. I am a strong advocate of being in therapy and my family knows it. They used to see being in therapy as a sign of weakness - someone who can't handle the ups and downs of life. My mother went to therapy for a short time in the past few years because of depression. But she quit because she said that "..it wasn't doing any good.".

Personally, oftentimes I think therapy is work. It does make you feel better but I feel like I do have to work at it. Therapy forced me to take a hard and honest look at my life - at the things my parents had done as well as the person who I had become as a result. That wasn't always easy - especially if you are honest with yourself. In the end it was definitely worth it.

Perhaps my use of the word 'confront' was too strong. I do think though that I felt deep sadness and pain as a result of therapy. But again, definitely worth it.

Originally Posted by GingerM

She went through hell and survived it - she can survive therapy, which is much less horrible, and has the added nicety of making her happier in the end than dragging the weight of this around with her has done.

Very well said. I will keep you posted if she does decide to do this.

Thank you again for your insights.

[barb dwyer]

very interesting thread.
much food for thought here.

thank you!

[StellaBlu]

Originally Posted by StellaBlu

Therapy forced me to take a hard and honest look at my life - at the things my parents had done as well as the person who I had become as a result. That wasn't always easy - especially if you are honest with yourself. In the end it was definitely worth it.

Hi - Yes, I'm quoting myself I just want to clarify - I think I've worked hard in therapy and I'm proud of the person that I've become. I didn't want people to think that I'm a mean person. I don't think of myself as a mean person. I guess what I was trying to say is this: Growing up, my parents mostly treated me with a lack of empathy, patience, kindness, compassion and respect. As a result, since rarely experiencing these things, I often adapted a way of interacting with others which lacked empathy, patience, kindness, compassion and respect. Therapy has helped me. Though not perfect, nowadays I try to live my life with a higher consciousness and treat others in the same way that I would want to be treated: with empathy, patience, kindness, compassion and respect. And sometimes I feel as though I'm more successful at this than others who were raised with less dysfunctional parents.

Though I have to admit, I still struggle sometimes with a sensitivity towards feeling like something I have done or have said has offended someone. Has anyone else ever felt like this? I think of it as the uglier side of being an ACOA.
Thank you,
sb

[takincareome]

Originally Posted by StellaBlu

Though I have to admit, I still struggle sometimes with a sensitivity towards feeling like something I have done or have said has offended someone. Has anyone else ever felt like this? I think of it as the uglier side of being an ACOA.

Hi Stella! Big hugs! I'm so glad you're here!

In answer to your question, yes yes yes. I'm a "people pleaser" from way back. I was kind of the Hero/Scapegoat (it depended ... my brother was sort of the Lost Child/Hero ... we doubled up on the roles, haha), but MOST of all I was the caretaker. My job was to take care of my codependent mother because my AF had made her sooo miserable and ruined her life. And you know, when you're a kid, you aren't old enough to think, "And you've contributed to this how?"

Anyhoo, I'm still trying to break out of that mold. I get into the car after leaving a social engagement and I immediately second guess most everything I've done and said throughout the evening. I don't like for anybody to be mad at me, and I don't like anybody not to like me ... EVEN (I love this part) WHEN I DON'T LIKE THEM.

That's what you get, I suppose when you're taught your feelings don't matter and your job is to please others and make them happy. I'm sure we people pleasers are pretty nice to be around most of the time but it sort of ends up making an internal mess, I've found. I'm working on this through therapy and have made some progress, but unlearning such behavior is a slow process.

I'm sorry to hear about the things that have happened to you but it sounds to me like you are definitely on the right path. Good for you for cutting off contact with your father. As far as your mother and sister, you have to do what's best for you, whether it's no contact, limited contact, whatever.

Remember to be gentle with yourself and take care of yourself. As my husband likes to tell me (among other things I'm the world's most impatient person), "It's a marathon, not a sprint."

Love
tcom