AA sued. Family Blames For Murder Of Daughter

Old 12-02-2014, 11:59 AM
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Adults are responsible for their own behavior, in AA or not. The courts and our justice system are responsible for the violent criminals they put on the streets.
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Old 12-03-2014, 07:51 AM
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Cannot agree more. Although many attending AA might be more vulnerable shouldn't they of all people be aware of the lying and deceit many addicts/alkies are capable of? Or if suggested that you don't date that should also be a flag.
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Old 12-03-2014, 08:28 AM
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Here's a letter to the Grapevine (AA's 'meeting in print' magazine) that a friend of mine wrote a few years back. Food for thought. Safety in the rooms has been a very hot discussion topic at larger regional forums in the past few years. It's an issue that AA needs to address, and the first step is awareness and starting the discussion.


How safe is your AA meeting? Have you ever personally not felt safe? Have you ever had someone give you a hug and walked away with an uncomfortable feeling? I ask these questions because I view with concern the sexual predation that I’ve seen in AA meetings. I have seen it happen in all gender relationships, but my personal experience is as a woman being preyed upon by men.

I know many of you are thinking, ·Well, that’s an outside issue," but I disagree. How can it be an outside issue if it affects my safety in the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous? Recent history reveals many organizations that have been held in high regard and beyond reproach for many years have recently been scrutinized for turning a blind eye to the behavior of their staff or volunteers toward their vulnerable members. These organizations seemed to have had knowledge of the behaviors and stuck their proverbial ”heads in the sand." The victims, along with the media and the courts, have forced these organizations to take a long, hard look at what they had knowledge of and what they did or did not do to try and stop it from occurring.

Now, there are no AA ”police," but the membership does take responsibility for its common welfare and carrying the message to those who still suffer. I have heard it said over and over again that the newcomer is the most important person in the room.
Do our actions show it? I came into the rooms 22 years ago with all the humiliation and degradation that happens to a practicing alcoholic woman. I needed to feel safe from the life I was leaving behind. Imagine my surprise when what I found was much of the same barroom behavior I had just left. I was groped, received obscene phone calls, stalked, and was nearly date-raped by a member of the Fellowship. Thank God for a strong female sponsor who taught me to not tolerate that behavior and to put afirm stop to it. She shared openly with me the facts about those who could not be trusted in the meetings I attended. There were many times I did not feel safe walking into the meeting, except that I knew she would be there and I would not be alone.

What about all of the new women who wander in, do not immediately find a sponsor, and leave in fear? I am deeply saddened when I think about all the female AAs I know personally who have been sexually assaulted by other members. They unfortunately found out the hard way that not all members of AA are trying to live our spiritual way of life. These women remained; how many left?

Calling this behavior "thirteenth stepping" makes it seem benign. This euphemistic terminology makes it sound like a part of the Twelve Steps, when in fact, that couldn’t be further from the truth. How can being that self-centered and selfish have anything
to do with working the Twelve Steps?

Many may think it a bit harsh to call this behavior "sexual predation." The term "sexual predator" often means a person who habitually seeks out sexual situations. Predation usually refers to one group or person hunting and killing another, or stealing from and destroying another. Is seeking out vulnerable newcomers for sexual gratification not a predatory behavior? Is not taking away a person’s chance to feel safe the same as stealing her chance to stay sober? Does this mean there is not a chair at the table of Alcoholics Anonymous for the sexual predator? Absolutely not; all who wish to recover are welcome. But this does not include taking away someone else’s opportunity to stay sober.

Much of this discussion has been changing over the last decade. AA is seeing younger members enter its rooms, and turning a blind eye to what is happening to a minor is very different in the eyes of the law. Like it or not, an individual with knowledge of the behavior could be held criminally liable.

We owe it to our members to make sure the meeting rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous are safe for everyone who enter. That means talking about this topic in our group conscience and with each other. It means leaving barroom behavior behind and treating the newcomers like they truly are the most important people in the room.

M.P., Meridian, Idaho
AA Grapevine, August 2009
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Old 12-03-2014, 09:57 AM
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4 yrs. ago at a 8 pm meeting I chaired a guy said "my name is so and so and I'm a sex offender." I paused, asked him if he had a desire to stop drinking. He paused. Someone else interjected that closed meetings are for folks desiring to stop drinking and the meeting went on. So did I. I went online and found 3 "regulars" on the list. On pedophile, one child porn trafficker (ex-school coach), and an inappropriate contact w/minor. A week later I found this guy and he was statutory- 19 with a 16 yr old and from the next county over. Apparently the prison rehab system is telling them to find a support group and many are choosing AA. I can't say this has not affected my attendance at said group because: 1) I have 3 daughters and don't want any of these creeps knowing anything about us 2) I think the percentage is too high for my comfort. I'm also well aware of guys flocking new women with understanding friendship. See it with some of the women too. Bottom line is meetings need to police themselves. I brought up barring sex offenders from our group (we have a playroom built on for kids) and was reminded of tradition 3. The child pornographer was a 20+ yr member when caught and still is. No doubt why this site has more women.
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Old 12-03-2014, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by anattaboy View Post
4 yrs. ago at a 8 pm meeting I chaired a guy said "my name is so and so and I'm a sex offender." I paused, asked him if he had a desire to stop drinking. He paused. Someone else interjected that closed meetings are for folks desiring to stop drinking and the meeting went on. So did I. I went online and found 3 "regulars" on the list. On pedophile, one child porn trafficker (ex-school coach), and an inappropriate contact w/minor. A week later I found this guy and he was statutory- 19 with a 16 yr old and from the next county over. Apparently the prison rehab system is telling them to find a support group and many are choosing AA. I can't say this has not affected my attendance at said group because: 1) I have 3 daughters and don't want any of these creeps knowing anything about us 2) I think the percentage is too high for my comfort. I'm also well aware of guys flocking new women with understanding friendship. See it with some of the women too. Bottom line is meetings need to police themselves. I brought up barring sex offenders from our group (we have a playroom built on for kids) and was reminded of tradition 3. The child pornographer was a 20+ yr member when caught and still is. No doubt why this site has more women.
I think it came it in the original story that a judge/s give AA as part of sentencing for some sex offenders. Quitting any addiction is as much about changing one ways but I do find these an oranges and apples things especially if the sex offender wasn't already considered rehabbed by the prison system.

My guess is that the voluntary or first time AA attenders are less dangerous than the court mandated attendees. But the most endangered. The women in the story was on her 6th rehab/attempt to get or stay sober so again she should been aware of what goes on meetings official or unofficial.
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Old 12-03-2014, 11:49 AM
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The same still applies. An anonymous platform with plenty of needy folks. And what's this about prison rehabbing people? More felons are going to be in AA than average due to the nature of alcohol making one game for anything. More to the point was the presence of sociopaths and the ripe environment AA meetings provide for folks of this ilk. AA proper will never pay out a settlement but court appointment to meetings may get shut down finally as it should be.
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Old 12-03-2014, 12:16 PM
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I stand by my previous comment but I think it sounded a bit cold. I think it's horrible that Thai woman was murdered and I feel for her friends an family.

This isn't an issue of violent offenders being at AA meetings. This an issue of the justice system and the "punishments" given to them. After a violent offender has "served their time" they are on our streets, in our communities, at AA meetings, at our churches. All too often the punishment does not fit the crime. I just saw a news story of a child molester who received probation. I know folks in prison for nonviolent crimes such as non payment of child support. Perhaps the solution isn't to blame self help groups that our justice system is using to deal with folks who need actual punishment. Recovery is far from punishment.
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Old 12-04-2014, 10:20 AM
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Karla Mendez Article

Due to watching a Sibling return repeatedly to an abusive Relationship, I plan to follow this Story long-term.

On the surface, Codie aspects of this Story resemble many Stories here over on the F&F Threads, IMO. They deserve compassion.

I use Articles like this to chase down other Sources cited, and formulate my own POV. I don't take any Article uncritically at face value.


Karla Mendez Story ~ ProPublica.org

-----
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Old 12-04-2014, 10:35 AM
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Interesting that I saw this thread and actually read that same article last night mesa man.

I'll reserve comment.
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Old 12-04-2014, 10:50 AM
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“Failure to challenge and stop inappropriate behaviour gives the offender permission to repeat the offensive behaviour and encourages others to follow suit.”

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Old 12-23-2014, 06:19 AM
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My 23 yr old son's x-sponsor was a sex offender 2 X and did prison time. I wondered why he only had 1 sponsoree. He made several provocative comments to myself and few friends (female and male)...haven't seen him in months, but was very angry and verbally abusive to my best friends. I realize they can't stay in prison for ever, but I know that AA/NA knows he's a registered sex offender. How can they allow him to be a sponsor???? My son still attends AA meetings as required by rehab he's in. He really likes another program better: refuge recovery. Check it out 😇
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Old 12-26-2014, 01:11 PM
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I feel for the family, and I understand their wish to hold someone accountable. AA as an entity isn't in a position to keep all its members safe--from each other or from anyone else. Ultimately, individuals are responsible for their own safety. I've known a few groups that, once they became aware of a member's repeated transgressions with female newcomers, did ban him from their meetings (after a group conscience). But banning people because of their history would keep a lot of people out whom AA is there to help.

Criminals too dangerous to be around others should be locked up for as long as possible. But the law has its limits in what it can do, and so does AA. And eliminating court-ordered treatment (AA or an alternative program) still would not prevent people who are predatory from coming on their own.

This situation strikes me as simply a risk of living in a free society. People can be made "safer" by imposing all kinds of restrictions on activities and associations, but then we are not living in a free society. We have restrictions on what the law can require of people for the common good. It's in the Constitution.

I think meetings can be made safer by encouraging members to speak up when they do become aware of predatory behavior, and some kind of action being taken to prevent predators from opportunistically preying on more vulnerable members. But every incident cannot be avoided.

There's plenty of information out there about potential dangers of predators. It's worthwhile to keep informed and to take action to protect yourself and others you notice at risk of victimization.
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Old 12-26-2014, 02:08 PM
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I would be the first to hold a church responsible for the actions of its members, Boy Scouts, Rotary Club, netfilx, any organization for that matter. AA allows anyone with the desire to stop drinking into the rooms no matter what else they are besides a drunk. Directly after a meeting one night an old timer walked up to a newcomer women and in front of everyone said, "I'd definitely like to 13 step you", and another man with just 2 years of sobriety on more than one occasion said he was only here for the women. At the NA meetings it was known by all the crack dealers were outside selling you know what and no one every did anything about it. Finally dealers got busted and the group was disbanded. It's never a complete secret in a group who the predators are.
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Old 12-26-2014, 02:16 PM
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Not all people who are labeled as sex offenders are violent criminals, pedophiles, and rapists. I think it would very unfair and inappropriate to "out" someone in a meeting. We are all responsible for our own safety and well-being. I understand that the parents must be in horrible pain but it is not anyone's fault that their daughter was murdered. Very sad.
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Old 02-14-2015, 02:07 PM
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Very sad for the parents but AA is not at all to blame. You can meet a murderer anywhere.
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Old 02-16-2015, 09:05 AM
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this is a keeper:

“Failure to challenge and stop inappropriate behaviour gives the offender permission to repeat the offensive behaviour and encourages others to follow suit.”
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Old 02-18-2015, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by neferkamichael View Post
I would be the first to hold a church responsible for the actions of its members, Boy Scouts, Rotary Club, netfilx, any organization for that matter. AA allows anyone with the desire to stop drinking into the rooms no matter what else they are besides a drunk. Directly after a meeting one night an old timer walked up to a newcomer women and in front of everyone said, "I'd definitely like to 13 step you", and another man with just 2 years of sobriety on more than one occasion said he was only here for the women.
I`ve not seen this much of this over the years in AA. However, I`ve heard others complain about it.

If you`re new to an AA meeting weird things can happen. When traveling I like to check out the local meetings but know enough to be a bit careful when people come up to me afterwards.

It doesn`t happen very often but I have been hit up for money and asked to drive a member somewhere.
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Old 02-18-2015, 10:23 PM
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Each group is autonomous.

So you cannot tell anyone they are "out of AA " as such.

But it's perfectly fine to kick them out of your group.

The 3rd tradition is followed in the preamble by "there are no dues or fees " etc.

Its just telling people "this is not like joining a golf club or country club or paying to go to a private rehab"...... It's free.

It was never meant to make AA groups go "Oh, you have a desire to stop drinking........ Great, please avail yourself of any young female members here and treat this place like a dating service."

Screw that. Kick em out, tell em they aren't welcome if they can't behave decently.

Each group has the right to protect its members, if they are being preyed on.
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Old 02-18-2015, 10:54 PM
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The dangers of mingling with a potentially seedy crowd seems to come with the territory of being in recovery. Let's face it: all of us who have attended AA meetings have seen some sketchy characters. The sad thing is, in the back of the general public's mind, many are thinking: "well, that's what they get for being alcoholics". Even worse, we believe them.

As alcoholics, we have learned that we don't deserve to meet outdoors or in nicely decorated public spaces; instead we gather in small church basements under the cover of darkness and anonymity. Even in our own minds we believe that we don't deserve to expect safety; we should just be happy that anyone still wants our company. And that ain't right.

While this particular case probably won't go anywhere (and I tend to agree with most on this thread that this lawsuit doesn't seem to hold water), it does bring to mind a recent movement brought to life by the film "The Anonymous People", feature documentary film about the over 23 million Americans living in long-term recovery. The basic premise is that the longer we continue to hide in church basements and the back rooms of the YMCA, the longer we continue to feed the notion that AA and other recovery programs are only for the downtrodden and desperate.

We in recovery deserve better. We are people with bright futures, people who have rights. We are the future of recovery programs, the mentors to those who come after us. Shouldn't we stand up and make things better for those that face similar challenges down the road? I hope that as a community, we can start holding our chins up a bit higher. We should not continue to simply accept the fact that we deserve to be sentenced to a life in the shadows. We need to start raising our own expectations. Being in a safe environment while working on our recoveries isn't that much to ask for. The majority of us are damn good people. We deserve better.
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Old 02-18-2015, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by anattaboy View Post
A week later I found this guy and he was statutory- 19 with a 16 yr old and from the next county over.
Is this really 'sex offender' how we usually think of that term though? I'm reading this as if it was consensual, but it's against the law in your country for a 16 y/o to have sexual relations (in my country, I think 16 is the legal age for girls).
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